Nicholson 32 what to look out for?

[Denek]

We are nearing a stint of working and living in the USA for three years. 10 weeks left till we return to England. Sold our last boat, a little Pegasus 800 when we came here and when we return we are looking for something slightly larger.
I like the look of the Nicholson although I have never set foot on one and I wondered what you need to look out for.
We have a budget of around £25k or at a push 30 but this will need to include everything to get the boat ready for extended cruising. The intention is to head for the med.
SWMBO likes the more modern boats but I am struggling to find one in our price range that has been re- engined and re rigged which given the age of boat we can afford I think is a requirement.
There seem to be a lot of Nicholson for sale either within our price that have had the above upgrades or much less so that the upgrades would be possible in budget.
Other requirements would be a holding tank, Bimini,and the various other necessities for med cruising.
We intend to skip down the French coast,spanish Rivas and Portugal to get down there and we envisage this taking a couple of seasons and once in the med we will take a very leisurely sail to the Greek islands ( Brexit permitting).
I am open to other boat suggestions too, looking for something seaworthy and big enough for a couple that will not have too many issues. Don't mind doing a little work but not too much as we want to get sailing again.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Bruce Danforth of this forum has one. I'll point him towards this thread.

 

[BruceDanforth]

I have a Mk 1. They are heavily built and seaworthy. They need a bit of a blow to get them going, heel over quite a bit initially and then tighten up and are fairly easy to sail. They can be a bit of a handful in a marina as they do not behave in any kind of a sensible or particularly predictable manner astern but some have had a bow thruster fitted which helps.

Mine had a great trick where it occasionally buries the bow into a wave, scoops up a couple of bathtubs of water and hurls it right over the sprayhood back into the cockpit which can be highly entertaining.

The Nic32 association can give you more details :

http://nicholson32.org/

 

[pvb]

I have a Mk 1. They are heavily built and seaworthy.

More "heavily built" than modern boats?

 

[johnalison]

More "heavily built" than modern boats?

Just a bit. I think the ballast ratio is about 60%. We sailed in company with a late model. It was significantly slower than modern boats of course, but went well under spinnaker, and was clearly comfortable and more than seaworthy. Other than an awkward step from cockpit to deck, I could see nothing to criticise.

 

[Denek]

Hi Bruce. Thanks for your reply. This fits with the information I have read. The water in the cockpit sounds entertaining, I am sure the wife will love that. Not!
Are there any issues I should look out for when looking at these. I understand osmosis can be an issue but due to the level of layup not a real problem.
As I have said I have never been on one but they look ( to me anyway) what a boat should look like.
I know on our little Pegasus we used to be very cramped in the v berth and so looking for a little more room there. We are not tall people and although a little overweight not too rotund but we did struggle to get a good nights sleep.
There does seem to be plenty of these for sale and there are some here in the states which appear very cheap but I am not sure I am ready for an Atlantic crossing just yet��

 

[Denek]

Hi John.
I read somewhere else about that step up. If I cannot cope with that I think I would give up altogether. Mind you I do have dodgy knees so...
We will not be in a hurry to get anywhere although I know a turn of speed can be useful. Are there any other boats you think we should be considering in this price bracket?

 

[Spyro]

The nic32 is a very old design with no rear cabin. space is limited and the cockpit is cramped. You will be spending a lot of time outside in the med. I don't think I've seen a Nic 32 with a bimini?? It's not what I'd consider a "Med boat". I think for extended cruising you will need more space, With your budget you could get an AWB with much more space and possible new engine. I'd be looking at a Jen Bav or Ben around the 32/33 ft range. some brokers are asking some crazy prices in todays market and boats have been for sale for a long time. Don't be put off by the asking prices. Just look at the thread about the ebay bargain. With cash in your hand don't be afraid to make offers considerably less than asking price.

 

[Denek]

That's interesting and will please my wife( if I tell her). Trouble is I have an idea what I want and she does too and somehow we are going to have to find a compromise.
I must admit I have this idea that I would like to venture further afield but SWMBO will not entertain the idea.
I guess we will have to have a good look around when we return to the UK.
With a budget of around $25k what sort of asking price should we be looking at ?i.e. What kind of drop off the asking price is sort of expected?

 

[pvb]

Just a bit. I think the ballast ratio is about 60%.

Does ballast ratio equal "heavily built"? I'm always perplexed by these claims of MABs being "heavily built". As far as I can see from online specs, if you take the ballast weight from the displacement of a Nic 32, you end up with a hull weight of around 3.1 tons (http://vancouver-webpages.com/N32/specif.html). If you take the ballast weight from the displacement of a Bavaria 32 Cruiser, you end up with a hull weight of around 3.9 tons (http://www.bavaria-yachting.gr/EN/32-CRUISER.htm).

 

[pvb]

The nic32 is a very old design with no rear cabin. space is limited and the cockpit is cramped. You will be spending a lot of time outside in the med. I don't think I've seen a Nic 32 with a bimini?? It's not what I'd consider a "Med boat". I think for extended cruising you will need more space, With your budget you could get an AWB with much more space and possible new engine.

Have to agree. An old Nic 32 wouldn't be an ideal choice for extended time in the Med.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

With £25k to £30k to spend, if you are pushing it, you may find that costs escalate and what was a £25k boat ends up costing £35k and still needs work. Old boats can raise a lot of issues that cost time and money that eventually cost you personally sailing time spent in a yard and extra cash for the dubious pleasure of not sailing. I speak from experience and just exiting from this process. The fact of the matter is that there are modern, well found boats, for around £30k to £35k that will do everything your want and be far greater value for money. Just be aware that old boats can cost a lot of money and time and the stuff that needs sorted is not always obvious from a survey.

 

[eddystone]

Does ballast ratio equal "heavily built"? I'm always perplexed by these claims of MABs being "heavily built". As far as I can see from online specs, if you take the ballast weight from the displacement of a Nic 32, you end up with a hull weight of around 3.1 tons (http://vancouver-webpages.com/N32/specif.html). If you take the ballast weight from the displacement of a Bavaria 32 Cruiser, you end up with a hull weight of around 3.9 tons (http://www.bavaria-yachting.gr/EN/32-CRUISER.htm).

Not altogether surprising as the Bavaria is a much bigger boat (other than LOD)

 

[Denek]

I am probably wrong but I have always thought that heavily built referred to the glass fiber thickness as I used to be in this industry back in the day and no one had a clue about the strength of it so they just kept piling it on.
That and the fact that there is more weight in the hull because of the long keel. Like I say I could be wrong. I am frequently told I am anyway.
I have read, probably on this forum. About boat hulls flexing because they are so thin. I don't know how true that is and even if it is true I am sure these are still seaworthy boats but I don't think it would fill me with confidence.
The reason I am looking at MAB is because of build and price TBH but I do like a boat that looks right and some AWB just don't rock my err! Boat.
Having said all that I have to be practical, eventually we will hopefully spend quite a lot of time in the med so we need a boat that's fit for purpose and if that's Jen ,bav Duf or whatever then that's the way we will go if it's in budget.

 

[pvb]

Not altogether surprising as the Bavaria is a much bigger boat (other than LOD)

Bavaria is shorter but a bit beamier. Not that much bigger. So does it also qualify for the "heavily built" label?

 

[Goldie]

[QUOTE Are there any other boats you think we should be considering in this price bracket?[/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong, I have a high regard for the Nicholson 32 but I'd take a look at both the Nicholson 31 and the Halmatic 30 (later became the Barbican 30) as well. Good luck in your search.

 

[BruceDanforth]

More "heavily built" than modern boats?

Well it was launched in '63 and is still going strong. You'd have to see one close up....

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Bavaria is shorter but a bit beamier. Not that much bigger. So does it also qualify for the "heavily built" label?

Modern boats are fatter & higher than old boats of the same length and have a fat rear end, so a significantly bigger surface area of hull & decks. Hull weight about the same, therefore old design has a thicker layup, and that's what heavily built means in this sense.

 

[Tranona]

I am probably wrong but I have always thought that heavily built referred to the glass fiber thickness as I used to be in this industry back in the day and no one had a clue about the strength of it so they just kept piling it on.
That and the fact that there is more weight in the hull because of the long keel. Like I say I could be wrong. I am frequently told I am anyway.
I have read, probably on this forum. About boat hulls flexing because they are so thin. I don't know how true that is and even if it is true I am sure these are still seaworthy boats but I don't think it would fill me with confidence.
The reason I am looking at MAB is because of build and price TBH but I do like a boat that looks right and some AWB just don't rock my err! Boat.
Having said all that I have to be practical, eventually we will hopefully spend quite a lot of time in the med so we need a boat that's fit for purpose and if that's Jen ,bav Duf or whatever then that's the way we will go if it's in budget.

The GRP is thick because it is not structurally engineered as today's boats are. They just took what were the timber scantlings of the day - and a 32' boat would have 1" thick planks so that is the thickness of poor strength fibreglass mat and low strength resin they put in the mould. Modern construction is, in engineering terms, light years ahead of 1960s "technology" - indeed it would be surprising if it isn't. All the stuff about flexing, thin hulls, not giving confidence is just mythical. These boats sail all over the world and doubt you will ever get anywhere near their limit. There are regular write ups in the yachting mags of people roaming far and wide - only this month a Benny 373 from Australia to New Caledonia in YM without any drama.

Remember those old style boats are narrow and deep, heel very easily because of slack bilges and need a huge amount of ballast to keep them upright. There are, of course good things about designs such as the Nic 32, but regrettably none that have any benefit cruising the Med! Why should they be suitable when Med sailing was never in the brief (indeed it was almost unheard of in 1965) - it was designed for all weather sailing in cold northern waters.

It would be terrible to invest all your money and effort on such a boat and then (as you will do) discover how unsuitable it is when you get there. Living on a boat in the Med is completely different from coastal sailing from the UK or crossing oceans.Your priorities are space both above and below decks (you will spend 90% of your time at anchor or on a berth), large open cockpit (most berthing is stern to a quay or a walkway) and of course you will want to swim, a good engine (very little real sailing and motoring typically 70% of time if you want to get anywhere) easy handling in reverse, good sailing ability in light winds, large fuel and water tanks, big battery bank, big fridge and plenty of shade - hence bimini, and good ground tackle with an electric windlass.

So your Nic 32 will not meet any of those criteria. In the 10 years I was out there everyone I met who had that kind of boat, which was often their dream, regretted their decision and wished they had bought a modern boat. Suggest you invest in a week's chartering in Greece (as it is the cheapest and arguably the most fun) so you get an idea what it is like living aboard in hot climate and why people generally choose modern boats.

As to the actual choice of boat - all are a compromise is some way, and all the better ones are always in the next price bracket above your budget. This is particularly true with your budget as you need to spend quite a lot kitting out a UK based boat for both the trip down there and for when you get there. You don't have enough to buy and equip something like an early 2000's Benny 351 or Bav 34, but you might be able to get a 10-20 year older Westerly or maybe a Sadler 34. The downside of older boats is there is a danger of your trip of a lifetime becoming "fixing boats in hot places". In a sense this applies to all used boats, so buying the best condition you can is better than getting hung up with a specific design. With your budget you can't really afford to do anything but recognise that you need a mobile home - the actual sailing bit is well within the capability of a huge range of boats, so the emphasis has to be on the practicality for living onboard.

Just to give you something else to think about - if living aboard in the Med is the prime objective then it makes sense to buy a boat there already properly equipped and proven. Even with the poor exchange rate you will get much better value than buying a boat in the UK and fitting it out. The downside, of course is you miss out on the trip down there.

You may even get lucky and find a boat like I just sold. A 2001 Bavaria 37 which I bought new, chartered for 6 years, spent some time living aboard (in Corfu) then sailed back to UK and sold it in 2015 to a family who have taken it to Spain. Fully equipped for the job and including the updating and preparation, cost them a bit over £40k. Similar boat in Greece would be in the £35k range, and a smaller 34 closer to £30k.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tranona]

Modern boats are fatter & higher than old boats of the same length and have a fat rear end, so a significantly bigger surface area of hull & decks. Hull weight about the same, therefore old design has a thicker layup, and that's what heavily built means in this sense.

But it is thicker because it is less strong and don't forget there is far more surface area under water, and crucially the hull skin has to be strong enough to to support that huge chunk of ballast which typically weighs over twice as much. So you need a greater thickness of the less strong laminate to hold it all together.

While your description is fairly accurate for a boat like a Nic 32, it does not describe later designs from British builders such as the Westerly Fulmar (not picking on this boat specifically but because I looked at its statistics as typical of its era) and they have far more in common with AWBs than with Nic 32s. Same high volume, shallow underwater hull shape, bolt on keel, wide stern etc. Owners describe them as heavily built but if you apply pvb's logic, the hull weight is is over a ton less than my slightly bigger Bav 33 and represent 57% of total displacement compared with 69%.