Newbie to solar

[Neeves]

Victron batteries are a crazy price.
Best bang for buck with lithium is to buy cells and BMS and assemble it yourself.
I spent £407 on my first battery, 271Ah and it's been in daily use for over two years, running the galley.
My second one arrives on Monday on the slow boat from China- 280Ah for $548 plus whatever Grenada customs charges me for import duty.

If you don't want to assemble a pack, you can get 'drop in' lithium for around twice the price. Still a lot cheaper than Victron.

I checked a price today and a drop in 200amp/hr lithium 'on special' is stg350, excluding delivery costs from western Sydney, this includes 10% sales tax. For us to pickup its an hour across Sydney. These have an internal BMS (which is frowned on by many here). I cannot find a 'direct' replacement for Kelpie's 271Ah nor 280Ah. My guess is these come from China. Sold by a reputable, afaik, Oz/NZ company family owned (in NZ). This price looks 'similar' to Kelpie's 'build your own' - not his idea of twice the price. For comparison a 170Ah AGM costs Stg150 vs the stg350.

those solar weekend warriors may want their kit to work 100%
i'm happy to pay for Victron monitors / shunts etc
no buttons to go wrong all bluetooth - excellent kit imo

I have no idea how reliable is the battery I quote but I see no reason why there should be doubts. BYD, MG et al seem to be fairly reliable with their electric cars, Tesla seem to get by. The Chinese are market leaders with wind farms - why might a Chinese battery mon, the original 'Western' designs are at least 25 years old now - so hardly high tech nor novel - be unreliable.....?? Kelpie is buying his lithium cells from China.......and his Aili battery mon came from China

I wonder if there have been any complaints about Chinese consumer marine instrumentation......? Or is this just a bit of Xenophobia.

I'm all for buying local, or (if you like) Western - but the differentials are too large and I don't need the bells and whistles.


Now I'm a complete aged numpty but I like buttons and it would be a bit sad if my blue tooth went wrong when I'm off grid.

Jonathan

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Been using Victron on both boat and camper van since 2017 very happy with it .... the only thing that went wrong was when I first fitted it and connected over Bluetooth I noticed that all the settings were a bit odd, so I did a factory reset and put in all the settings for my boat, including re-naming the device and setting a new BT Pin. Oddly enough, it didn't seem to be working as the data from the device didn't correspond to my setup. I then realised that the owner of a boat not far away also had solar, and Victron, but the muppet had never named his MPPT or changed the PIN from the default 000000 - so I'd screwed up his solar setup and overwritten all his settings. I did another factory reset on his device and connected to mine and set it up - everything worked fine.

I did apologise profusely and advised him to name his MPPT and change the PIN.

 

[noelex]

"No name" MPPT controllers are not a sensible choice in my view. The reliability is questionable and often the tracking system is so poor that the solar yield is worse than simpler PWM controllers. There are even many cases of PWM sold with MPPT labels.

If you want an inexpensive solar controller, a PWM model is a better choice. These have relatively simple circuitry and even cheap "no name" brands work well and are reliable. Some units have independently adjustable voltage set points. These models are preferable to models with just a few options based on battery type, especially if you plan on leaving your batteries in storage mode over the winter.

Keep in mind with a PWM controller you are limited to "12v” panels connected in parallel, but this should not be a practical problem if you are setting up a small, simple system where these low costs controllers are ideally suited. If you are fitting a more sophisticated system a decent MPPT controller is a bettter choice.

 

[Slowboater33]

Thank you all for replies/suggestions. I only need to keep my batteries topped up over winter as I will be in sunny climbs till April. I'm going to go with a 50w panel and add 2 more 50w when I return. I'm going with an mppt box as I'll be adding more later. Does one fuse this single 50w panel and where.
Salamat kuyo

 

[Kelpie]

Fuse or breaker between the MPPT and the battery.
I would be very tempted to buy all of the panels at the same time to ensure that they have matching specs.

 

[noelex]

Thank you all for replies/suggestions. I only need to keep my batteries topped up over winter as I will be in sunny climbs till April. I'm going to go with a 50w panel and add 2 more 50w when I return. I'm going with an mppt box as I'll be adding more later. Does one fuse this single 50w panel and where.
Salamat kuyo

You need a fuse between the controller and the batteries, preferably near the batteries.

With a single 50w panel you do not need an extra fuse between the solar panels and the controller, but if you eventually plan to install three panels in parallel then each solar panel output will need its own fuse.

It is also nice (but not essential) to be able to disconnect the solar panels from the controller, so many people use a breaker rather than a fuse to accomplish these dual tasks.

 

[Slowboater33]

You need a fuse between the controller and the batteries, preferably near the batteries.

With a single 50w panel you do not need an extra fuse between the solar panels and the controller, but if you eventually plan to install three panels in parallel then each solar panel output will need its own fuse.

It is also nice (but not essential) to be able to disconnect the solar panels from the controller, so many people use a breaker rather than a fuse to accomplish these dual tasks.

Thank you

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Tha

Graham your calculations on solar PV panel current are flawed. They are usually rated in watts as max current multiplied by max volts. So you should be dividing power by 20v (sometimes 18v) to get max current which in fact will be quoted usually on the panel. So OP 80w panel gives I expect 4 amps max. That means that almost any controller will happily control it. (avoid over charge of batteries). I have the Victron 10A at home and am very pleased with it. However only suitable for one battery. (not dual) so OP needs to decide if he wants the 2 x 100AH batteries in parallel for charging. ie when leaving boat. OP will discover that biggest problem with solar PV panels is in finding a place for them on a small boat. ol'will

Thanks William. Good call.

 

[Slowboater33]

William your right space for mounting is a problem. Going to mount on pushpit as have just enough space to do that.

 

[Neeves]

William your right space for mounting is a problem. Going to mount on pushpit as have just enough space to do that.

If you check back through the 'lithium' threads you will find that one common location for panels is on the lifelines, between the stanchions. The panel is located along one long edge and then 'lifted' (with a strut like a miniature washing line prop) with strut at the outer edge and the foot of the strut on the toe rail. You could utilise the pushpit or pulpit in the same way. This arrangement is, commonly, outboard. However if you are not actually on the yacht it could all be arranged inboard (over the side decks, for example).

If you are young enough and have a tumbler dryer - sadly you might not know what a washing line prop is nor how it was used .

If you are not using the boat then there is a huge area you can use, its inboard and sails do not come into the equation. You need to develop some way to attach to the lifelines - and if you are imaginative the same panels can be used later on top of, instead of, a Bimini.

Of course if you have large yacht, better a multihull, you don't need these convoluted techniques

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

If you check back through the 'lithium' threads you will find that one common location for panels is on the lifelines, between the stanchions. The panel is located along one long edge and then 'lifted' (with a strut like a miniature washing line prop) with strut at the outer edge and the foot of the strut on the toe rail. You could utilise the pushpit or pulpit in the same way. This arrangement is, commonly, outboard. However if you are not actually on the yacht it could all be arranged inboard (over the side decks, for example).

If you are young enough and have a tumbler dryer - sadly you might not know what a washing line prop is nor how it was used .

If you are not using the boat then there is a huge area you can use, its inboard and sails do not come into the equation. You need to develop some way to attach to the lifelines - and if you are imaginative the same panels can be used later on top of, instead of, a Bimini.

Of course if you have large yacht, better a multihull, you don't need these convoluted techniques

Jonathan

In our neck of the woods, "washing line prop" is a stretcher.

 

[Neeves]

In our neck of the woods, "washing line prop" is a stretcher.

We live and learn. Its amazing you and I (foot hills of the Ochils) lived not far apart 30-50 miles in our formative years and I never heard the term (used in this context). Mind you I did have a very sheltered childhood.

I've been wracking my memory cells and think we just called it a 'clothes prop' - but I did resurrect the word 'posser'.
Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

I'm in the process of making up a small addition to our 180w of panels. Two 50w panels, joined along two long sides with a couple of bits of webbing, leaving about 400mm between the two panels. These will then be slung over the mizzen boom when at anchor, and held up at an appropriate angle by snap hooks on the lazy jacks. The two panels are connected in parallel, and plugged into a socket, and from there to their own voltage regulator.
I had thought about mounting them on the guard rails, but it seemed simpler and less intrusive just sling them on the boom.

 

[Neeves]

I'm in the process of making up a small addition to our 180w of panels. Two 50w panels, joined along two long sides with a couple of bits of webbing, leaving about 400mm between the two panels. These will then be slung over the mizzen boom when at anchor, and held up at an appropriate angle by snap hooks on the lazy jacks. The two panels are connected in parallel, and plugged into a socket, and from there to their own voltage regulator.
I had thought about mounting them on the guard rails, but it seemed simpler and less intrusive just sling them on the boom.

The lifelines, guard rail, location is developed so that you can use the panels at sea with the panels outboard. For the OP - as he is not using the yacht - he can locate them inboard over the sidedeck. There must be lots of options - yours is another original idea (or first time I have read about it). At sea you can simply lift them off the boom fold your panels together making them easier to store.

Our panels were all flexible but I was testing (to much criticism) - on our house roof a 200w folding panel, so 2 x 100w, - I'm amazed out how heavy it is and sufficiently large. even when folded, to make storage an issue. Why the roof - the location of maximum sun and accessible with 10m long cable to the MPPT controller, battery mon and battery. The solar blanket might be a better option than folding - but I have never actually seen one - see a few posts earlier today.

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

I am no Solar guru ... far from it ...

I have used trickle panels to keep cars alive in UK for months inbetween visits .... verdict ? 50-50 success !

I use a small 20W (probably gives about 5W !!) to keep a 7Ahr SLA charged for my mobo bilge pump - very successful. In fact I never connect boat to shore power. That SLA powers LED spotlight to find way home on river ... LED nav lights as well as the auto bilge pump.

I use a small 40W (probably gives about 10W !!) on pushpit rail of Superanne to twin output controller for my two 90A/hr Lead acids. Its a cheapo Chinese package of PWM twin output controller with a panel ... I clip it to pushpit rail using plastic pipe clips ... its basically back-up for when people forget to plug my shore cable in. Seems to work OK. Controller shows two green lights !

I have a 50W panel on the 38 that feeds via a single outlet controller to the triple 75 A/hr bank Lead Acids - probably only gives 20W ... if lucky. Unknown but I know seller did not connect to shore and left boat on this ....

Having now seen what is possible with the newer solar ... I am seriously considering upgrading all three setups ....

The mobo could have a better panel .. ie 40W and a Lawn Tractor 40 A/hr Lead acid ....

Superanne - a second same panel as already clipped on rail is on the bench ... so I can parallel them to same controller.

Anisette - my larger boat - I think a second or replace existing panel with newer slightly larger panel could be an idea.

Do I need more than a 100W panel ? No I don't think so - but then again ... if I could power the fridge ??? BUT - where to fit such panels ....

So many boats I see with panels and think UGH !! Makes me consider an arch with multiple small panels instead of larger.

 

[Slowboater33]

Decided after all the advice from you guys to do following. Two 50w panels mounted on pushpit in parallel. Through a victron 75/15 controller. Gather I need to fuse the panels as in parallel setup, plus fuse from battery to controller. Last question on this what size fuses for panels and battery.
Thx v much

 

[Slowboater33]

If you check back through the 'lithium' threads you will find that one common location for panels is on the lifelines, between the stanchions. The panel is located along one long edge and then 'lifted' (with a strut like a miniature washing line prop) with strut at the outer edge and the foot of the strut on the toe rail. You could utilise the pushpit or pulpit in the same way. This arrangement is, commonly, outboard. However if you are not actually on the yacht it could all be arranged inboard (over the side decks, for example).

If you are young enough and have a tumbler dryer - sadly you might not know what a washing line prop is nor how it was used .

If you are not using the boat then there is a huge area you can use, its inboard and sails do not come into the equation. You need to develop some way to attach to the lifelines - and if you are imaginative the same panels can be used later on top of, instead of, a Bimini.

Of course if you have large yacht, better a multihull, you don't need these convoluted techniques

Jonathan

Lol Neeves. Definately old enough to know what a washing line prop was.....also used a mangle and copper stick

 

[jac]

Decided after all the advice from you guys to do following. Two 50w panels mounted on pushpit in parallel. Through a victron 75/15 controller. Gather I need to fuse the panels as in parallel setup, plus fuse from battery to controller. Last question on this what size fuses for panels and battery.
Thx v much

The fuse is to protect the wire and is not related to the size of panel ( Of course the wiring should be sized suitably and larger than the fuse.) Realistically even with both of them at peak output you will have less than 5A going through the wiring so really depends on length of teh circuit. 2.5mm should cover you but best to measure the length and look it up in the tables

 

[onesea]

Far from an expert in Solar, however last boat had a 30w panel with pwm controller that kept us topped (one 100 amp battery) up for weekend sailing. For 10 years cheapy from eBay.

New boat I started the same, however pricing side screens/ spray Dodgers for cockpit. It turned out solar panels where cheaper.

So I now have 130w of solar going into a 100amp battery, with PMW controller.

Suddenly we had more power than we knew what to do with.
We bought a little usb table top fridge, we still had some solar. So today I feel l fitted a 35ltr total cool fridge.
We will keep it on all winter (United it's that cold ) see how the setup handles long winter nights.

Lesson, look realistically at what you actually want or need. Or you might find yourself buying extras to use the extra

 

[Alicatt]

Just been getting messages from our marina, they have been trimming the trees back today as they are blocking the solar panels on the boats