New V Old

[ashtead]

It’s an interesting debate which we faced when buying our first boat in 2001 ,although having sailed the family centaur since the mid1970s so had a fairly good Solent knowledge (Berthon berths at £5 a night) . So we started as you do perhaps looking at older Moody boats S31 I recall and country cottage Najad and such like but sadly many had a musty boat smell,stinking heads or whatever and so after viewing a few at second hand boat shows(Swanwick I believe) we decided to venture to the new market. Clearly the Hallberg and Malo folk were out of our range but was tempted by small hunter legend but eventually we went for a Bavaria 34 (which is actually 10.8 m so don’t be confused by the Bav numbering BTW) influenced by keen price on water,number being sold and the new to us kit we could include. So we enjoyed around 14 years sailing and found our Bav fairly easy to sell even in a quieter market using Clipper. We upgrade and again decided to buy new as at our budget we were looking at a 10 year old Hallberg or say Arcona or a new Moody. It has a self tacker ,outer headsail,bowthruster,electric winches and went went for the stack pack option. So it’s easier to sail in many ways to the Bav and carries way better given extra weight but you cannot push it around on a pontoon so berthing can be harder, just need to plan more really your planB on berthing.

A lot will depend I guess on your crew requirements (assuming you have some) plus what the crew values but a list of key features you want might influence eg do you want a large stern cabin or are you happy with a decent forward cabin. Do you want twin stern cabins for crew or any canine friends . How many heads do you want -one is fine for us but many like 2 .do you want a large fridge? Chart table? All these things might drive you to an older boat say a jeanneau deck saloon or older Bav . If you want new just don’t under estimate kit to add -you might easily be spending 15k on new kit so that eats into your £100k -I rather suspect that while a £100k k sounds a lot with the kit you need you might be a bit light(happy to be shot down here though) so if the 11-12m is your range you might be obliged to go for an older boat,but maybe you just buy small as a first boat if you consider a bav33 small and plan to trade on in a few years. I would be guided by what is easy to sell on when the market might be less buoyant . I guess another factor is where you plan to berth -is it all states entry or tidal entry? Does a lifting keel appeal? Do bilge keels appeal?

Remember often brokers know of boats which are not actively on market so it might be worth seeing out some better brokers to see what they might offer for that £100k Less that new kit margin of course.

 

[Csfisher]

I doubt your £100,000 budget is going to buy a 3 to 4 year old boat with these features. Personally the current offerinsg have been designed for people like you, but not for experienced sailors. Having just had my 41 year old 32ft Westerly Fulmar at the Southampton Boat Show, I heard so many comments about the dislike of the current offerings, not just from people with 40 year old boats but frequently from people with 15 to 20 year old boats from the major mass market builders.

The only reason for twin wheels is due to the massive increase in beam taken almost fully aft in modern boats to create a more spacious interior. As these hulls heel, a central rudder lifts out of the water as the lack of buoyancing in the bow. This has meant fitting twin rudders and twin wheels. Most modern designs need to be sailed close to upright and must reef early, but my Fulmar even when hard pressed only heals at 15 to 20 degrees.

At the same time these modern boats have not increased in weight, but compared to an older Halberg Rassey, they sit on the water rather than in the water. This give a more bouncy ride and are less comfortable to be on in a berth or anchorage with any fast flowing or rougher water. Wave slap under the transom can be very disturbing in an aft cabin. Higher freeboard is almost impossible to get aboard if tied to a longside berth without a set of steps. Using the transom which drops down does make access very easy, but can also be damaged more easily when reversing into a berth. Being berthed stern in a marina is less private than berthing bows in.

Many people say that modern boats are better engineered. However having chatted with a number of crane drivers who lift all types of boats, they all tell me the same about modern boats, lifting staps must be on bulkheads and all interior doors must be shut, then once out of the water the chocks must be on a bulkhead. Many owners find that chocks not on a bulkhead push the hull in and the supposed strength is not sufficient to stop internal doors from either being almost impossible to open or shut. The boats are design for loading s in the water and should be able to be kept out of the water, but ask any marina crane driver to confirm this. The last one I chatted with was from Hythe Marina, so pop over there and have a chat if you do not believe me.

As for your love of windows in the hull, these are fitted because the topsides have also been raised and it is impossible to see out of the coachroof windows. If you have proper framed windows fitted, they are fine. Plexiglass that has been bolted to the hull are fine. Plexiglass that is just bonded looks clean, but having chatted with a selling agent of large motor boats with bonded windows, he told me that big problems are starting to show up with these windows leaking. Just an aside my 7 year old car with an original bonded windscreen has just started leaking, despite never having been in an accident.

Starting to own a boat is so different than crewing on one. You should have gained quite a lot of experience on how to sail (presumeably by racing). You should have an idea of how to navigate, but can you park a boat or fix an engine or a blocked loo? Owning a boat requires these skills and many more. My advice would be to try sailing on some more traditional cruising boats and modern ones to see which you prefer. Joining the Cruising Association might be worth it as a crewing member. No doubt there may be some boats that might offer you a sail, try walking around several marinas and chatting with some owners,.

The decision whether to buy newer or older is your choice, but I am in the older camp - even though I could have bought a new boat. The only way you can decide is look at lots of boats that are for sale within your budget. Overtime your choice will be made by you, not by anyone telling you what to do.

The actual sailing bit I have total confidence in, and I am reasonably confident in my mechanical ability with regards to engines. I have been servicing engines (motorbikes, cars etc.) myself for a while, and have a good enough understanding of simple issues such as electronics, bleeding fuel systems, belts, blocked strainers etc. that I can get myself out of trouble at sea in *most* cases.

Mooring a boat yes, I would say I am quite proficient. I have been very lucky in that most owners have let me practice mooring their boats, and more recently when I crew, often it is by invitation as an 'experienced' sailor or I have been skipper for them - specifically for my navigation skills. I should add that in my day job I am a professional mariner on 10,000+ ton vessels and I hold an STCW 95 unlimited ticket in addition to my RYA tickets. Turns out there are no shortage of people out there with boats but minimal sailing experience. During my time crewing, I have spent a fair share of time chasing leaks in bilges, fixing dodgy wiring, going up the mast, and while I haven't unblocked a loo I should think I have enough practical skills I could figure it out even if with the aid of a Youtube video or online instruction.

My family have sailed and owned boats their whole lives; although they have always been lucky enough to be boats such as IPs, HRs, or Najads bought brand new and sold before they are 10 years old so while I am somewhat familiar with these older prestige boats and really do understand their benefits, I can't afford one that new and don't have a lot of practical experience with what they are like to own after they age.

I do hear your concerns regarding the structural strength issues on the newer boats; this is the sort of feedback I have heard plenty of on the internet and I guess am trying to get to the bottom of. Out of curiosity, is this just what you have heard or do you know this from experience?

More importantly, as a member of the older boat camp, I am interested to hear more about your experiences on older boats. After 20 years old, do they develop a lot of niggling problems? And do you ever find yourself wishing you had a lighter displacement boat for when the winds are <10 kts ? Also do you do a lot more blue water sailing?

The windows in the hull leaking was a concern of mine when I saw them; and kind of ties in to the general overall quality question I have. To be fair though, I have also noticed a share of older boats with leaky coach roof windows and hatches so I guess they aren't immune either. I wouldn't say I have a 'love' of them though; I just find the pre 2015 or so era boats to feel very dark and gloomy particularly if they are fitted with the darker wood interiors. Perhaps it's just the lighter colours on the newer boats that give them that airier feel although it is also nice to be able to see out from the settee or V berth.

The twin wheel thing; that is just a personal preference. And not one I'm hard over, I don't mind a single wheel. I don't much like tillers, have always preferred wheels purely as a preference. And yes - I just like the look of the twin wheels but also see the practical benefits of them. Interestingly the new Bavaria C38 only has a single rudder with dual wheels. With regards to them being pushed right aft, I do like how open that leaves the cockpit especially on a smaller boat.

I know ultimately I just need to look at a bunch of boats and see what I can most picture myself enjoying owning the most. I just want to make sure I go armed with my research before I go falling in love with something that could end up being a horrible horrible mistake.

 

[Csfisher]

I

I haven't been on a Hanse, the boats I refer to were Jeanneaus and Beneteaus, late 90's to early-00's models, and over 10 years old when I sailed on them.

I happily acknowledge that Jeanneau and Beneteau make good products, but most of us on this forum don't buy our boats brand new. Most people, buying brand new and offered a choice between a £200,000 boat and a £250,000 boat of the same length will chose the £200,000 one - either that or they'll up the budget and buy a bigger boat from the company that makes the £200,000 one.

I'm sure the majority of buyers are happy with their new boats, but there is no incentive for Jeanneau and Beneteau to make boats which will last a lifetime. I'd guess that few boats are kept by their first owner more than 10 years, and I'd guess that's what these boats are optimised for. That, or 5 years or so as charters.

On these 10+ years old boats, I experienced parts falling off in my hands. At one point on the Beneteau 40.7, which I took from Southampton to Malta, so much water was coming through the deck (I think where screws joined the deck and hull) that the shelves in the forecabin had water an inch deep in them, which sloshed onto the mattress with the motion of the boat. I just found my previous post in which I wrote about this, and am reminded that the top literally tore off the forecabin closet when I lost my balance, wedged against it getting dressed. You could see it was ply or MDF held together with pins or little staples. The latches which secure the cupboard doors were plastic, whereas they would be brass on an older boat, and we had to use squares of gaffer tape to stop them opening.


It seems conceivable to me that it's possible to make boats better without spending more money - you don't need to spend more money making the glassfibre thicker, you can just put a ridge in it, along the direction in which it's stressed, in order to make it stronger; you might use a different kind of fastener, or build the cabinets with glue and a biscuit jointer instead of the aforementioned pins. It seems to me that improved and specialised tooling could facilitate this.

Hence I'm quite ready to believe @Tranona when he says the build quality of his 2015 Bavaria is leaps and bounds better than that of his 2001 one. Maybe Hanse were just a few years ahead of Jeanneau and Beneteau in that regard - I can only speak to the boats I've been on.

Also aren't the Bavarias, at least now, using solid wood for their interiors and not MDF with veneers?

 

[Csfisher]

Well £100 K is a pretty decent budget...

I would concentrate in 5 or 6 models of boats that I would really like. I would stick to the budget and when the opportunity arise… don’t take any hostages: go for a kill – repent later.

Newer or older... go for what you really like. And stick to your budget.

That is easier said than done; I am notoriously bad at sticking with a budget. But sage advise nonetheless.

 

[Csfisher]

It’s an interesting debate which we faced when buying our first boat in 2001 ,although having sailed the family centaur since the mid1970s so had a fairly good Solent knowledge (Berthon berths at £5 a night) . So we started as you do perhaps looking at older Moody boats S31 I recall and country cottage Najad and such like but sadly many had a musty boat smell,stinking heads or whatever and so after viewing a few at second hand boat shows(Swanwick I believe) we decided to venture to the new market. Clearly the Hallberg and Malo folk were out of our range but was tempted by small hunter legend but eventually we went for a Bavaria 34 (which is actually 10.8 m so don’t be confused by the Bav numbering BTW) influenced by keen price on water,number being sold and the new to us kit we could include. So we enjoyed around 14 years sailing and found our Bav fairly easy to sell even in a quieter market using Clipper. We upgrade and again decided to buy new as at our budget we were looking at a 10 year old Hallberg or say Arcona or a new Moody. It has a self tacker ,outer headsail,bowthruster,electric winches and went went for the stack pack option. So it’s easier to sail in many ways to the Bav and carries way better given extra weight but you cannot push it around on a pontoon so berthing can be harder, just need to plan more really your planB on berthing.

A lot will depend I guess on your crew requirements (assuming you have some) plus what the crew values but a list of key features you want might influence eg do you want a large stern cabin or are you happy with a decent forward cabin. Do you want twin stern cabins for crew or any canine friends . How many heads do you want -one is fine for us but many like 2 .do you want a large fridge? Chart table? All these things might drive you to an older boat say a jeanneau deck saloon or older Bav . If you want new just don’t under estimate kit to add -you might easily be spending 15k on new kit so that eats into your £100k -I rather suspect that while a £100k k sounds a lot with the kit you need you might be a bit light(happy to be shot down here though) so if the 11-12m is your range you might be obliged to go for an older boat,but maybe you just buy small as a first boat if you consider a bav33 small and plan to trade on in a few years. I would be guided by what is easy to sell on when the market might be less buoyant . I guess another factor is where you plan to berth -is it all states entry or tidal entry? Does a lifting keel appeal? Do bilge keels appeal?

Remember often brokers know of boats which are not actively on market so it might be worth seeing out some better brokers to see what they might offer for that £100k Less that new kit margin of course.

the 11-12m would have been my ideal; but with how some of these newer boats are laid out I really am seriously considering now some of the smaller boats. I think I am just put off because most my sailing experience is on 40ft boats of various eras, plus OLD small boats (Contessa 32 etc). I haven't actually sailed a new 30-34ft boat.

Crew requirements are mostly the fact that my partner doesn't like the darker gloomier cabins. She rather likes the look of new boats, but doesn't like the idea of them potentially be as safe. I value sailing performance most, she values comfort down below the most. I do value comfort down below to an extent also though.

I prefer two cabin layouts with a larger locker instead. I like the idea of a large aft cabin, but equally I'd be just as happy in a GOOD FWD cabin - I've seen some really awful ones with almost no storage or space to dress or move or that aren't very nice for two people sharing.

One head is fine. Two I feel would be unnecessary and a waste of space for us; and would be more to go wrong.

Large fridge isn't essential, but at least a little bit of countertop space is nice; I was surprised to see a front loading fridge on the new Bav 38, but then realised actually it would be nice to not have to clear the counter to open the fridge provided everything doesn't fall out and the door stays closed.

Professionally I no longer use paper charts, and I have fully embraced technology so am happy with the modern smaller folding chart tables with just a thin slot to store a backup portfolio.

My planned berth is all state with a pontoon (depending on draft, entrance dredged to 1.5m and a mean low water spring of 0.7 meaning a 2m draft should be fine).

Lifting and bilge keels are an absolute no for me. I don't intend to take the bottom (intentionally) and therefore wouldn't benefit from the performance trade off.
INTERESTLY however, I did sail an Ovni for a while with a lifting keel and was very pleasantly surprised with how well it sailed - although the flat bottom made it somewhat uncomfortable in a chop despite it's size and weight.

That's a good tip on the brokers, thanks - I'll reach out to them when I'm closer to buying to see what they have coming to market!

When you say new kit; are you referring to the tools, warps and fenders, lifejackets, tools etc. that would generally come with an older boat? If so yes those do add up in cost rather quickly! Or are you referring to the deck hardware and upgrades that are 'options' on a newer boat?

 

[Csfisher]

A modern boat makes a lot of sense from an ease of use and maintenance point of view and I seriously considered one but to my mind the majority of production boat interiors (post 2015 ish) look cheap and nasty and remind me of a certain furniture store and at the Southampton boat show recently I was amazed just how much money you need to spend to get what I'd consider a "quality" interior and that includes a number of premium brands. I guess its a bit like your house really. Sort out the roof and the pointing and I'd take this over a modern estate house any day but each to his own The only caveat being that the older boat has been looked after and doesn't need a new teak deck!

My internal debate. I simply refuse to have any furniture made by said store in my house. Which is why despite logically a newer boat suiting me better; it is a serious debate.

 

[Concerto]

Concerto, sorry but quite a lot of what you say above is more personal opinion / prejudice and, in some cases, simply factually wrong.

The Fulmar is a brilliant boat for its era - we owned one 15 or so years ago and loved it. Ironically, one of the great things about the Fulmar was that it was the start of a rejuvenation of the Westerly range, with a new designer and a much more modern hull shape and sailing performance, whilst retaining a good solid interior. But it was very much in the “new” camp rather than traditional.

I wonder how much experience you have with modern boats as some of the statements appear to be unfamiliarity. Twin wheels for example are not due to having twin rudders. And a well set up boat with twin wheels is a joy to helm upwind and down, due to the great sight line to the sails, very difficult to get with a single wheel. And avoids the issue on our Fulmar, of the weather helm pulling my son down off the coamings when helming with the extension. The twin wheels are easier for people without strength and weight to hang onto the tiller extension.

So I remain a fan of the Fulmar, as one of the best sailing “modern“ boat of its time. But I have twice updated to what I consider better boats, which were not around when the Fulmars were built - but retaining many of its best strengths.
With every era there are a lot of mediocre boats, some outstanding ones and a few absolute dogs. But it is design and quality that counts, not ”my era is the best”.

Knowing how devisive a thread on New v Old boats can be, I made no recommendation for new or old. Buying a first yacht is a big decision and getting it right is a worry. Unfortunately you have directed away from the points I was making, new boats are not anywhere as good a many comment. For a first time buyer, I talked about problems he should be aware of, not he should buy an old boat. I certainly did not make any specific recommendations like my boat is best because I bought one (like a lot of comments so far).

I could have mentioned the construction problem of the keel matrix becoming dislodged after running aground. This is a far more common problem than many owners are aware of and I have a number of conversations over recent years with people involved with glassfibre repairs and there are some posts on this forum on this subject, but damage like this is normally hushed up. If you ask any owner of a modern boat if he has run aground doing 5 knots or more, what he immediately does -go to a marina to get lifted to check the keel. This article from 2008 on a J109 keel problem (J109 J120 stress cracking in keel hull connection) is worth reading, but this post in the thread by Black Dog on the 18th March 2008 is worth quoting here.
"I once talked to a high ranking Jboat person about the problem of building a boat that will go 12 to 15 knots, then engineering a keel that would stay on after hitting a rock at that speed. He said you have to draw a line between strength, budget and performance. The keel would have to look like one from an Island Piglet to not sustain any damage at that speed after hitting something solid. Yes they could engineer it, but no one would buy it. "
Remember this comment was made 13 years ago and in my opinion, still applies today.

Just in case you missed my last paragraph in my post, I am repeating it.
The decision whether to buy newer or older is your choice, but I am in the older camp - even though I could have bought a new boat. The only way you can decide is look at lots of boats that are for sale within your budget. Overtime your choice will be made by you, not by anyone telling you what to do.
This was my advice and I still stand by it. Only Csfisher can decide what to buy. He has come for advice and the forum has a wide range of opinions being expressed which may complicate his buying decision rather simplify it.

 

[ashtead]

Hi C -when I said kit I was really thinking of electronics so autopilot chart plotter,AIS , depth,wind speed vhf with twin stations at helm and below , plus any engine upgrade you might fancy, inverter , cockpit tent, cockpit cushions , wheel covers ,extra spiny halyard and pole etc on mast ,bow thruster but not really needed smaller size I suspect, assuming it comes with shore power, hot water . If you want light interiors in blond colours as opposed to the older Brown look then I suspect maybe a 2015 boat ? Are there any out there though? You might end up with a 33 -35 as opposed to 36-39 I suspect . Maybe a Dehler gives you more performance ? Hanse stablemates etc.

 

[Concerto]

The actual sailing bit I have total confidence in, and I am reasonably confident in my mechanical ability with regards to engines. I have been servicing engines (motorbikes, cars etc.) myself for a while, and have a good enough understanding of simple issues such as electronics, bleeding fuel systems, belts, blocked strainers etc. that I can get myself out of trouble at sea in *most* cases.

Mooring a boat yes, I would say I am quite proficient. I have been very lucky in that most owners have let me practice mooring their boats, and more recently when I crew, often it is by invitation as an 'experienced' sailor or I have been skipper for them - specifically for my navigation skills. I should add that in my day job I am a professional mariner on 10,000+ ton vessels and I hold an STCW 95 unlimited ticket in addition to my RYA tickets. Turns out there are no shortage of people out there with boats but minimal sailing experience. During my time crewing, I have spent a fair share of time chasing leaks in bilges, fixing dodgy wiring, going up the mast, and while I haven't unblocked a loo I should think I have enough practical skills I could figure it out even if with the aid of a Youtube video or online instruction.

My family have sailed and owned boats their whole lives; although they have always been lucky enough to be boats such as IPs, HRs, or Najads bought brand new and sold before they are 10 years old so while I am somewhat familiar with these older prestige boats and really do understand their benefits, I can't afford one that new and don't have a lot of practical experience with what they are like to own after they age.

I do hear your concerns regarding the structural strength issues on the newer boats; this is the sort of feedback I have heard plenty of on the internet and I guess am trying to get to the bottom of. Out of curiosity, is this just what you have heard or do you know this from experience?

More importantly, as a member of the older boat camp, I am interested to hear more about your experiences on older boats. After 20 years old, do they develop a lot of niggling problems? And do you ever find yourself wishing you had a lighter displacement boat for when the winds are <10 kts ? Also do you do a lot more blue water sailing?

The windows in the hull leaking was a concern of mine when I saw them; and kind of ties in to the general overall quality question I have. To be fair though, I have also noticed a share of older boats with leaky coach roof windows and hatches so I guess they aren't immune either. I wouldn't say I have a 'love' of them though; I just find the pre 2015 or so era boats to feel very dark and gloomy particularly if they are fitted with the darker wood interiors. Perhaps it's just the lighter colours on the newer boats that give them that airier feel although it is also nice to be able to see out from the settee or V berth.

The twin wheel thing; that is just a personal preference. And not one I'm hard over, I don't mind a single wheel. I don't much like tillers, have always preferred wheels purely as a preference. And yes - I just like the look of the twin wheels but also see the practical benefits of them. Interestingly the new Bavaria C38 only has a single rudder with dual wheels. With regards to them being pushed right aft, I do like how open that leaves the cockpit especially on a smaller boat.

I know ultimately I just need to look at a bunch of boats and see what I can most picture myself enjoying owning the most. I just want to make sure I go armed with my research before I go falling in love with something that could end up being a horrible horrible mistake.

Thank you for your long reply. So frequently the question you raised comes from someone with little experience of boats.

Having started sailing in 1965 and done a lot of offshore racing in the 1970's and 80's, along with a lot of cruising . I should state I have never sailed blue water and doubt at my age whether I ever shall. Next year I am heading singlehanded from Chatham up the East Coast and when I get to the Shetlands, I am stopping to have a look around before returning down the West Coast. I regularly do hops of 60 miles or longer. Recently I did the 90 miles from Chatham to Eastbourne going to the boat show and again on my return, both ways in just over 16 hours, one in rough weather and the other in much calmer conditions.

My Fulmar is coming to the end of a long renovation and why I wanted to show her off at the boat show as the Westerly Owners boat. These two links are worth looking at to show Concerto off.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf
Concerto at the Boat Show 2021

To answer your question about niggling problems. It always depends of how a boat has been maintained. Any older boat (10 years onward) can develop problems, but some can be down to penny pinching by the builder. Using brass not bronze seacocks means they only last 5 years roughly before needing replacement. Read this article. https://trip.ayy.fi/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Seacocks.pdf

When buying any secondhand boat, condition is everything unless you are prepared to do lots of work like I have done. Working/fixing a boat can stop you going sailing. Windows can leak at any age, but the older ones I mentioned are simpler to fix whereas the bonded only windows require more specialist equipment whilst ashore to refix. Most of the problems I did talk about are either directly with someone involved or the repairer, not hearsay or internet comments. With your experience, just go and chat to any of the workmen working on modern boats for their direct comments, some stories are frightening. Plus they can be a mine of information, I know most of my local repair guys to chat to. if you become an owner they are worth knowing, even if only asking for advice.

A slightly heavier displacement boat is not that slow if well sailed as I regularly out sail many 35 to 37ft modern yachts. Comfort of the boat in the water cannot be underestimated, and this can include how much steadier you are at anchor rather than yawing around. Most modern boats rely on form stability (wide beam), rather than keel weight, to keep them upright, so boat weigths are difficult to directly compare as older boats usually have a bow overhang and narrower beam but sit in the water rather than on the water. Many older boats have smaller accomodation than similar length modern boats for this reason. The current fashion of fitting a bowsprit almost defeats having a plum bow and, unless retractable, will cost a lot extra in berthing charges.

You may be attracted to the light open interiors, but compare them to your experience of sailing you family's old boats. I find them too open with limited hand holds, sharp corners and massive headroom. At the show I had one visitor who was wanting to move up from a 25ft yacht and was please with the 6' 2" headroom on Concerto, despite being 6'7". What surprised him more was all the berths were long enough for him to stretch out straight. Part of your decision is you want to sail fast and you also want a spacious cockpit. If you are used to a traditional cockpit like an IP or HR, you may find them more a party space than a good sailing cockpit. Many of the older boats have nice wooden interiors, but modern boats now use a plastic type overlay on the furniture. Ask the new dealers about what the "plywood" panels are made from, you may be surprised.

Boats over about 33ft usually have wheels due to the power of the rudder, whereas I prefer a tiller. A steering pedalistal is good for bracing against and mounting a folding table, and for mounting instruments for the helmsman, but the crew may never see what the instruments show.

You have not mentioned storage and locker space. My Fulmar has an amazing amount of lockers internally and a massive sail locker in the cockpit that stores my inflatable and 9 finders plus many other items. When looking at any boat, think about storage as some boats it can be quite limited. You have not mentioned how many you are expecting to sail with, but just think of what clothes, footware, safety equipment, waterproofs, gadgets and food everyone needs for say a fortnights holiday and whether a boat can cope with this volume.

I do repeat there is nothing better than going out looking at boats and seeing what you like. If you are wanting a nice older boat that performs well and is well within your budget I would suggest looking at this boat which is local to you. I would love to own one. Westerly Typhoon

 

[KompetentKrew]

If this was my budget, and I had a job and a house and all that which restricted me to weekends and holidays, I would be looking at a Jeanneau 3200 or seeing what else I could find that was similar. I was really taken with the 3200 I was moored next to last-but-one winter, but I don't think that would be spacious enough down below to fulfil OP's requirements.

I also really like the Fulmar, but if you want to go places and you've only got a weekend in which to do so, then I think you might appreciate an extra knot.

 

[Csfisher]

Hi C -when I said kit I was really thinking of electronics so autopilot chart plotter,AIS , depth,wind speed vhf with twin stations at helm and below , plus any engine upgrade you might fancy, inverter , cockpit tent, cockpit cushions , wheel covers ,extra spiny halyard and pole etc on mast ,bow thruster but not really needed smaller size I suspect, assuming it comes with shore power, hot water . If you want light interiors in blond colours as opposed to the older Brown look then I suspect maybe a 2015 boat ? Are there any out there though? You might end up with a 33 -35 as opposed to 36-39 I suspect . Maybe a Dehler gives you more performance ? Hanse stablemates etc.

Oh yeah I understand what you're saying. Thankfully most do seem to come with most of those. Perhaps additional batteries and a battery management system would be required. And some may not have the sail inventory I desire but for the most part the newer ones all seem to have an electric anchor windless, good navigation set up. Older boats may need some of those things renewing our course but I'll make sure I factor those in if that do not.

And it is looking increasingly like my best bet is to aim for a smaller boat (30 or 34ft) if I go newer. I think I was under some delusion that somehow in the next year or so prices will drop as you're right the 36-38s just don't seem to be very plentiful in my age and price range.

 

[matt1]

The actual sailing bit I have total confidence in, and I am reasonably confident in my mechanical ability with regards to engines. I have been servicing engines (motorbikes, cars etc.) myself for a while, and have a good enough understanding of simple issues such as electronics, bleeding fuel systems, belts, blocked strainers etc. that I can get myself out of trouble at sea in *most* cases.

Mooring a boat yes, I would say I am quite proficient. I have been very lucky in that most owners have let me practice mooring their boats, and more recently when I crew, often it is by invitation as an 'experienced' sailor or I have been skipper for them - specifically for my navigation skills. I should add that in my day job I am a professional mariner on 10,000+ ton vessels and I hold an STCW 95 unlimited ticket in addition to my RYA tickets. Turns out there are no shortage of people out there with boats but minimal sailing experience. During my time crewing, I have spent a fair share of time chasing leaks in bilges, fixing dodgy wiring, going up the mast, and while I haven't unblocked a loo I should think I have enough practical skills I could figure it out even if with the aid of a Youtube video or online instruction.

My family have sailed and owned boats their whole lives; although they have always been lucky enough to be boats such as IPs, HRs, or Najads bought brand new and sold before they are 10 years old so while I am somewhat familiar with these older prestige boats and really do understand their benefits, I can't afford one that new and don't have a lot of practical experience with what they are like to own after they age.

I do hear your concerns regarding the structural strength issues on the newer boats; this is the sort of feedback I have heard plenty of on the internet and I guess am trying to get to the bottom of. Out of curiosity, is this just what you have heard or do you know this from experience?

More importantly, as a member of the older boat camp, I am interested to hear more about your experiences on older boats. After 20 years old, do they develop a lot of niggling problems? And do you ever find yourself wishing you had a lighter displacement boat for when the winds are <10 kts ? Also do you do a lot more blue water sailing?

The windows in the hull leaking was a concern of mine when I saw them; and kind of ties in to the general overall quality question I have. To be fair though, I have also noticed a share of older boats with leaky coach roof windows and hatches so I guess they aren't immune either. I wouldn't say I have a 'love' of them though; I just find the pre 2015 or so era boats to feel very dark and gloomy particularly if they are fitted with the darker wood interiors. Perhaps it's just the lighter colours on the newer boats that give them that airier feel although it is also nice to be able to see out from the settee or V berth.

The twin wheel thing; that is just a personal preference. And not one I'm hard over, I don't mind a single wheel. I don't much like tillers, have always preferred wheels purely as a preference. And yes - I just like the look of the twin wheels but also see the practical benefits of them. Interestingly the new Bavaria C38 only has a single rudder with dual wheels. With regards to them being pushed right aft, I do like how open that leaves the cockpit especially on a smaller boat.

I know ultimately I just need to look at a bunch of boats and see what I can most picture myself enjoying owning the most. I just want to make sure I go armed with my research before I go falling in love with something that could end up being a horrible horrible mistake.

The actual sailing bit I have total confidence in, and I am reasonably confident in my mechanical ability with regards to engines. I have been servicing engines (motorbikes, cars etc.) myself for a while, and have a good enough understanding of simple issues such as electronics, bleeding fuel systems, belts, blocked strainers etc. that I can get myself out of trouble at sea in *most* cases.

Mooring a boat yes, I would say I am quite proficient. I have been very lucky in that most owners have let me practice mooring their boats, and more recently when I crew, often it is by invitation as an 'experienced' sailor or I have been skipper for them - specifically for my navigation skills. I should add that in my day job I am a professional mariner on 10,000+ ton vessels and I hold an STCW 95 unlimited ticket in addition to my RYA tickets. Turns out there are no shortage of people out there with boats but minimal sailing experience. During my time crewing, I have spent a fair share of time chasing leaks in bilges, fixing dodgy wiring, going up the mast, and while I haven't unblocked a loo I should think I have enough practical skills I could figure it out even if with the aid of a Youtube video or online instruction.

My family have sailed and owned boats their whole lives; although they have always been lucky enough to be boats such as IPs, HRs, or Najads bought brand new and sold before they are 10 years old so while I am somewhat familiar with these older prestige boats and really do understand their benefits, I can't afford one that new and don't have a lot of practical experience with what they are like to own after they age.

I do hear your concerns regarding the structural strength issues on the newer boats; this is the sort of feedback I have heard plenty of on the internet and I guess am trying to get to the bottom of. Out of curiosity, is this just what you have heard or do you know this from experience?

More importantly, as a member of the older boat camp, I am interested to hear more about your experiences on older boats. After 20 years old, do they develop a lot of niggling problems? And do you ever find yourself wishing you had a lighter displacement boat for when the winds are <10 kts ? Also do you do a lot more blue water sailing?

The windows in the hull leaking was a concern of mine when I saw them; and kind of ties in to the general overall quality question I have. To be fair though, I have also noticed a share of older boats with leaky coach roof windows and hatches so I guess they aren't immune either. I wouldn't say I have a 'love' of them though; I just find the pre 2015 or so era boats to feel very dark and gloomy particularly if they are fitted with the darker wood interiors. Perhaps it's just the lighter colours on the newer boats that give them that airier feel although it is also nice to be able to see out from the settee or V berth.

The twin wheel thing; that is just a personal preference. And not one I'm hard over, I don't mind a single wheel. I don't much like tillers, have always preferred wheels purely as a preference. And yes - I just like the look of the twin wheels but also see the practical benefits of them. Interestingly the new Bavaria C38 only has a single rudder with dual wheels. With regards to them being pushed right aft, I do like how open that leaves the cockpit especially on a smaller boat.

I know ultimately I just need to look at a bunch of boats and see what I can most picture myself enjoying owning the most. I just want to make sure I go armed with my research before I go falling in love with something that could end up being a horrible horrible mistake.

I’m afraid the comments about structural integrity are just complete BS and like many of the other ramblings just factually incorrect and prejudice

I could go on and take many of a concertos comments apart but I try to resist rising to these kinds of threads in general - it just saddens me when genuine newcomers ask for advice and get subjected to personal prejudice and BS

FWIW I’ve been having “modern” boats of different manufacturers lifted for years, by a range of professional operators including MDL (who are very fastidious) and they have never gone round looking for bulkheads at which to support the boat or asking me to close internal doors etc The only thing they have ever shown any interest in is where the sail drive leg and log impeller is.

You will probably have seen from Concertos very long posts on here and his fairly repetitious insertion of YouTube clips that he’s a bit of a one man Westerly Fulmar crusade fair enough, he’s refurbed his boat and is proud of it…I get it, I built two boats which I was proud of.

You won’t find any boat post the 1980s that hasn’t been “properly built” and certainly since the RCD regs where minimum ISO stds for hulls, rudders, laminate etc were defined. It’s unlikely your choice of model or age initself will be a horrible mistake. Your biggest chance of a mistake is buying something that has been grounded / poorly maintained or had poorly repaired damage. Please don’t let some of the old boat “gaslighters” on here put you off

It strikes me you are rather more proficient than you let on, so go with your gut

if you take any comfort from these threads it’s that the vast majority passionately defend their brand / age / model and I’ve never seen anyone express regret over their purchase. Good luck and enjoy whatever you get

 

[Ammonite]

My internal debate. I simply refuse to have any furniture made by said store in my house. Which is why despite logically a newer boat suiting me better; it is a serious debate.

Maybe I'm just daft but to me there's a romance in owning a boat. Old or new, big or small doesn't really matter I need to feel proud about owning it, which is why I came away from the last SBS thinking why oh why didn't they spend an extra £5k - £20k on raw materials (for the furniture) which in the overall scheme of things on a 100, 200, 300, 500k boat wouldn't make any difference but would transform the look and feel.

 

[geem]

Concerto, sorry but quite a lot of what you say above is more personal opinion / prejudice and, in some cases, simply factually wrong.

The Fulmar is a brilliant boat for its era - we owned one 15 or so years ago and loved it. Ironically, one of the great things about the Fulmar was that it was the start of a rejuvenation of the Westerly range, with a new designer and a much more modern hull shape and sailing performance, whilst retaining a good solid interior. But it was very much in the “new” camp rather than traditional.

I wonder how much experience you have with modern boats as some of the statements appear to be unfamiliarity. Twin wheels for example are not due to having twin rudders. And a well set up boat with twin wheels is a joy to helm upwind and down, due to the great sight line to the sails, very difficult to get with a single wheel. And avoids the issue on our Fulmar, of the weather helm pulling my son down off the coamings when helming with the extension. The twin wheels are easier for people without strength and weight to hang onto the tiller extension.

So I remain a fan of the Fulmar, as one of the best sailing “modern“ boat of its time. But I have twice updated to what I consider better boats, which were not around when the Fulmars were built - but retaining many of its best strengths.
With every era there are a lot of mediocre boats, some outstanding ones and a few absolute dogs. But it is design and quality that counts, not ”my era is the best”.

The Fulmar was first produced in 1979. It's a modern sailing boat! Really?
If the Fulmar is modern does that mean everything in the last 40 years is also modern?
We all know the answer is no. I also know the Fulmar is an excellent boat but don't argue it's modern.

 

[lustyd]

After 20 years old, do they develop a lot of niggling problems?

The main issue as boats age is mould and dirt, as well as corrosion. On the size you're looking at it can be difficult to access certain bits, and so they don't get maintained or cleaned. Lockers in cabins with 20 years of condensation will mould soon after cleaning unless you rip out all the lining and start afresh. My boat is 1999 and well maintained and I'd say no, there aren't more problems than a new boat, just different problems - owners of new boats just call them snags.

I do hear your concerns regarding the structural strength issues on the newer boats

A lot of people talk about strength of new boats, but they never define when "new" is. Generally it's 10-20 years newer than their boat, which was called structurally weak and poorly made when new by people with even older boats. Before that GRP was considered untrustworthy by wooden boat owners. They're all delusional, there are pretty much no reports of structural issues with any major brand.

Also aren't the Bavarias, at least now, using solid wood for their interiors and not MDF with veneers?

They never did use MDF, it was ply with veneers and is structurally much better than solid wood since it doesn't warp. This is what allows structural materials to be thinner and lighter, as well as being easier to produce. The romantic idea that a piece of wood cut straight from a tree is somehow better than well engineered sheet material is just that, a romantic notion of how we wish the world was. Ply doesn't exist to use up spare bits of wood, it exists because it's better in many applications.

 

[lustyd]

limited hand holds, sharp corners

I can see plenty of handholds but I'm struggling to find sharp corners
CRUISER 34 Interior | BAVARIA YACHTS

 

[lustyd]

Maybe I'm just daft but to me there's a romance in owning a boat. Old or new, big or small doesn't really matter I need to feel proud about owning it, which is why I came away from the last SBS thinking why oh why didn't they spend an extra £5k - £20k on raw materials (for the furniture) which in the overall scheme of things on a 100, 200, 300, 500k boat wouldn't make any difference but would transform the look and feel.

They did, it's just that those materials don't fit with your idea of romance. The whole Bavaria range, for instance, seems to have Corian worktops and those are very expensive. The engineered ply used by Groupe Beneteau is exceptionally expensive, very hard wearing, and has extremely consistent grain patterns while also being eco friendly and avoiding teak. It is available aftermarket (through them or their supplier) so replacing cupboard doors without problematic matching and varnishing is possible, albeing very pricey. They also use bronze seacocks, and while I'd prefer TruDesign I don't really have an issue with bronze.
The chap opposite me in the marina has a Bav C42, bought new and delivered this year. He's about as proud an owner as I've ever seen, and regularly cleans it including hoovering the cockpit! What he doesn't have to be proud of though, is musty old smelling cushions with 30 years of sweat in them, a smelly heads, and mouldy lockers. Romance is in the eye of the beholder, as is quality.

 

[geem]

They did, it's just that those materials don't fit with your idea of romance. The whole Bavaria range, for instance, seems to have Corian worktops and those are very expensive. The engineered ply used by Groupe Beneteau is exceptionally expensive, very hard wearing, and has extremely consistent grain patterns while also being eco friendly and avoiding teak. It is available aftermarket (through them or their supplier) so replacing cupboard doors without problematic matching and varnishing is possible, albeing very pricey. They also use bronze seacocks, and while I'd prefer TruDesign I don't really have an issue with bronze.
The chap opposite me in the marina has a Bav C42, bought new and delivered this year. He's about as proud an owner as I've ever seen, and regularly cleans it including hoovering the cockpit! What he doesn't have to be proud of though, is musty old smelling cushions with 30 years of sweat in them, a smelly heads, and mouldy lockers. Romance is in the eye of the beholder, as is quality.

So you think people with old boats have original cushions? ?
I suspect mine and many others with old boats have newer cushions than yours. We don't sail museum pieces. Continual upgrade is the name of the game. Most of us actually out there sailing probably have newer electronics than the average 10 year old boat.
We also vacuum clean the cockpit, but we also have new Vectran sails, cabin soleboards, hull paint, windlass, winches, running and standing rigging, etc. So who is really in the old boat?

 

[Ammonite]

They did, it's just that those materials don't fit with your idea of romance. The whole Bavaria range, for instance, seems to have Corian worktops and those are very expensive. The engineered ply used by Groupe Beneteau is exceptionally expensive, very hard wearing, and has extremely consistent grain patterns while also being eco friendly and avoiding teak. It is available aftermarket (through them or their supplier) so replacing cupboard doors without problematic matching and varnishing is possible, albeing very pricey. They also use bronze seacocks, and while I'd prefer TruDesign I don't really have an issue with bronze.
The chap opposite me in the marina has a Bav C42, bought new and delivered this year. He's about as proud an owner as I've ever seen, and regularly cleans it including hoovering the cockpit! What he doesn't have to be proud of though, is musty old smelling cushions with 30 years of sweat in them, a smelly heads, and mouldy lockers. Romance is in the eye of the beholder, as is quality.

They did, it's just that those materials don't fit with your idea of romance. The whole Bavaria range, for instance, seems to have Corian worktops and those are very expensive. The engineered ply used by Groupe Beneteau is exceptionally expensive, very hard wearing, and has extremely consistent grain patterns while also being eco friendly and avoiding teak. It is available aftermarket (through them or their supplier) so replacing cupboard doors without problematic matching and varnishing is possible, albeing very pricey. They also use bronze seacocks, and while I'd prefer TruDesign I don't really have an issue with bronze.
The chap opposite me in the marina has a Bav C42, bought new and delivered this year. He's about as proud an owner as I've ever seen, and regularly cleans it including hoovering the cockpit! What he doesn't have to be proud of though, is musty old smelling cushions with 30 years of sweat in them, a smelly heads, and mouldy lockers. Romance is in the eye of the beholder, as is quality.

Sorry but that's nonsense IMO
From an engineering point of view the materials might be good but £10k spent on thicker panels, some decent mouldings, a louvre door or two, a few curves, a cabin sole that doesn't look like plastic and some proper upholstery would transform the look of that boat into something I would buy. It is of course a matter of taste just in the same way that some prefer people to buy a brand new Renault rather than a secondhand premium brand. Me I happen to be in the latter camp.

 

[Concerto]

I’m afraid the comments about structural integrity are just complete BS and like many of the other ramblings just factually incorrect and prejudice

I could go on and take many of a concertos comments apart but I try to resist rising to these kinds of threads in general - it just saddens me when genuine newcomers ask for advice and get subjected to personal prejudice and BS

FWIW I’ve been having “modern” boats of different manufacturers lifted for years, by a range of professional operators including MDL (who are very fastidious) and they have never gone round looking for bulkheads at which to support the boat or asking me to close internal doors etc The only thing they have ever shown any interest in is where the sail drive leg and log impeller is.

You will probably have seen from Concertos very long posts on here and his fairly repetitious insertion of YouTube clips that he’s a bit of a one man Westerly Fulmar crusade fair enough, he’s refurbed his boat and is proud of it…I get it, I built two boats which I was proud of.

You won’t find any boat post the 1980s that hasn’t been “properly built” and certainly since the RCD regs where minimum ISO stds for hulls, rudders, laminate etc were defined. It’s unlikely your choice of model or age initself will be a horrible mistake. Your biggest chance of a mistake is buying something that has been grounded / poorly maintained or had poorly repaired damage. Please don’t let some of the old boat “gaslighters” on here put you off

It strikes me you are rather more proficient than you let on, so go with your gut

if you take any comfort from these threads it’s that the vast majority passionately defend their brand / age / model and I’ve never seen anyone express regret over their purchase. Good luck and enjoy whatever you get

Matt1, perhaps you should be less blinkered. Do as I have suggested and talk to guys who work in boatyards and you will find plenty of comments from them about all the problems I have mentioned. They have no axe to grind, just fix all the boats with problems. You may have been fortunate with your boats, but

I only linked details of Concerto as Csfisher is a new member of the forum and might not have seen them. They were for his benefit as there is information he may find useful and I feel sure you do not want to look at them again, so stop winging about it.

Re the RCD regulations, well they are not any sort of guarantee to quality. These were created as the lowest common denominator that all the manufacturers could get away with. They recommend that a river boat should not be used offshore, which is pretty obvious. They allow designers and builders to construct to a very minimum basic standard, not up to a standard of quality, let alone guarantee to use marine standard fittings. Like so many other EU regulations, they define the obvious and solve nothing, but add additional bureaucracy that makes it much more difficult for new builders to enter the market place. The RCD regulations are nothing like the old Lloyds 100A+ standard, in which a surveyor checked the scantlings of each boat during construction and certified they met the standards of the time. Maybe I prefer the luddite standard of higher ballast ratios over form stabilty that modern boats have due to RCD regulations being met.

Re the keel matrix. Go to Port Solent and check out the Sunsail boats. Recently I was talking to someone who used to work there and he said that every year 3 or 4 of them required major work on the keel matrix. In my marina there is a modern boat that required a £32,000 repair to fix the keel matrix that dislodged. Now look at these links.
Keel failure: the shocking facts - Yachting World (from 2014)
https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/810291/MGN_XXX_Keel_Grounding.pdf
https://safety4sea.com/uk-maib-less...VeHcMvhP2HQ-1634116931-0-gqNtZGzNAjujcnBszQhR
Keel Integrity Thread
For even more try Googling Keel Matrix Problems.

As I have said before, it is personal choice as to what Csfisher wants to buy. I also have not said older boats are better than new ones, they can have problems that are different but easier to spot.