New V Old

[Csfisher]

Thank you all very much with your patience in answering what I am sure is a repeat thread.

It is also very refreshing to hear something other than the same old 'new boats are terrible' opinions that my research seems to drag up.

What I've learnt, from reading your responses is that I think deep down I do want a newer boat. I would love a quality boat like halberg rassy, Island packet etc. I love their little details like struts on the cockpit lockers etc. And the feeling of go anywhere capability but ultimately I think a newer boat sounds like it'll bring me more joy because of their speed, and a little less maintenance at least for the first 5 years or so.

It's unfortunate that I have to compromise, I do like quality. I too have an older 1800s house but at the same time i spend far more time than I care replacing roof tiles or worrying that the pointing is crumbling and sometimes wish I had something newer. With cars however I avoiding buying older high mileage but thankfully they're cheaper than boats so I can buy newer AND quality.

I think I will keep my horizons open with regards to viewings. If a nice older boat presents itself and I go look and it has been exceptionally maintained then that's great, but I feel more confident including the production boats in my search. Thankfully living in the Solent means *most* are only a 15 minute or so drive from me to view.

I shan't ask about Ben Vs Jen Vs bav as I suspect mostly they're very similar and will come down to which I prefer the feel of being on although I'm leaning more towards Bavaria or Hanse at this stage.

Some of the really new smaller boats I think perhaps are even worth considering, some of the 33s or even 30ft boats now have the same waterline length and internal volume of some older much bigger boats which makes for a tempting option but I'd have to see them in person I think to know how they really feel.

 

[Csfisher]

The reality is that in today's market you will not get a 2-5 year old AWB for £100k in that size range. I have a 2015 Bav 33 which is effectively the smallest model (along with similar from the others) and they are currently changing hands between £85-90k. If you go up to a 37 which is spot on for your requirements £115-120k for a 5-7 year old boat. In my opinion (biased of course!) far better value than a 20 year old "quality" boat in functional and economic terms. But of course boats are emotive things and there is for some a big plus in owning a boat like an HR, Malo, Najad etc. What you miss out on though is the up to date gear, simple construction, low maintenance costs and at least another 5 years without any significant upgrades or replacements.

I bought my boat new in 2015 fully specced and the cost including Coppercoat was just north of £100k. Look at today's selling prices and that answers your depreciation question. My view is that we are entering a period of low or no drop in monetary value of most decent boats, and particularly late model boats. This is for a number of reasons, the main being lack of supply and massive increase in cost of new boats which in turn reduces sales, leading to few trade ins etc (bit like cars). Add in a dose of inflation which will raise the monetary cost of everything and particularly boats and it is clear that now is the time to buy, if you can.

As to quality, this has come on leaps and bounds. This is my second Bavaria, both bought new. The first a 2001 37 was used as a charter boat and survived very well despite (or maybe because of) being a being a bit crude and basic. The 33 is in a different league - beautifully made in a "machine" way with reasonable quality materials, and at 6 years old looks feels and smells like a new boat. Only failures have been on bits that are the same as fitted to just about all boats at any level - Volvo exhaust muffler, Garmin instruments and latest one Lewmar windlass.

I should add that I single hand all the time and the boat is a delight to handle - in mast, all controls aft, push button autopilot and can tack down Poole Harbour like a dinghy. A bow thruster plus big engine makes it easy to park in my restricted berth. Only downside, common with many modern boats, not so comfortable going to wind in a chop.

So my vote would be go modern, but 10 or more years back and your £100k will buy you a really sound up to date boat in your size range with some to spare for upgrades. Thinking Hanse 370, Beneteau 373, Bavaria 37, Jeanneau 379 as examples.

I am noticing a general lack of boats on the market right now. I put that down to combination of Brexit and COVID. I'm rather hoping that given time more will come to market and prices will start to drop. I'm not in any rush to buy, and am willing to wait for the right boat to come along.

The thing that hurts me right now, is the 10 year old boats right now don't really appeal to me all that much. The features of new boats that I really like and that set them apart from the older boats, only really seem to be on the 2016+ boats. Things like portholes in the fwd cabin, twin helms pushed right aft, and especially wide beams for example.

Perhaps my best option is to wait another year or two for those 2018s etc to become just a little cheaper an in my price range.

 

[Wing Mark]

I am noticing a general lack of boats on the market right now. I put that down to combination of Brexit and COVID. I'm rather hoping that given time more will come to market and prices will start to drop. I'm not in any rush to buy, and am willing to wait for the right boat to come along.

The thing that hurts me right now, is the 10 year old boats right now don't really appeal to me all that much. The features of new boats that I really like and that set them apart from the older boats, only really seem to be on the 2016+ boats. Things like portholes in the fwd cabin, twin helms pushed right aft, and especially wide beams for example.

Perhaps my best option is to wait another year or two for those 2018s etc to become just a little cheaper an in my price range.

I'm not sure used boats will get cheaper at that end of the market.

 

[Tranona]

Some of the really new smaller boats I think perhaps are even worth considering, some of the 33s or even 30ft boats now have the same waterline length and internal volume of some older much bigger boats which makes for a tempting option but I'd have to see them in person I think to know how they really feel.

There is some sense in that. I swapped a 2001 Bav 37 for a 2015 Bav 33. Same waterline length, similar beam and same displacement. However, because the space is used differently, the 37 with its 2 aft cabins and linear galley always felt bigger inside. Key though for me are that the 33 is so much nicer in its construction and is far easier to sail with 106% jib rather than 135% genoa, mainsheet near the helm and aft located winches. Single wheel on mine, but clear to walk around - later ones had twin wheel option.

As it happens as you can see on another thread I am actually buying another (older) "quality" boat. So I shall be selling her soon - not from any sense of dissatisfaction, but simply because I have had my money's worth out of the project and enjoyed every minute, but I want a new challenge and a little bit of fulfilling a life long dream of owning a particular design of boat. Hopefully market prices will hold up so when I am ready it will go quickly at a good price!

 

[ithet]

I suppose one of your buttons tells it to go to port for a new starboard tack and vice versa?

No, press -10 & -1 together for tack/gybe to port, +10 and +1 together for starboard. As far as I know all Raymarine and Navico models work that way.

 

[geem]

I am noticing a general lack of boats on the market right now. I put that down to combination of Brexit and COVID. I'm rather hoping that given time more will come to market and prices will start to drop. I'm not in any rush to buy, and am willing to wait for the right boat to come along.

The thing that hurts me right now, is the 10 year old boats right now don't really appeal to me all that much. The features of new boats that I really like and that set them apart from the older boats, only really seem to be on the 2016+ boats. Things like portholes in the fwd cabin, twin helms pushed right aft, and especially wide beams for example.

Perhaps my best option is to wait another year or two for those 2018s etc to become just a little cheaper an in my price range.

You like the thing in boats that I would avoid?

 

[doug748]

..................
Some of the really new smaller boats I think perhaps are even worth considering, some of the 33s or even 30ft boats now have the same waterline length and internal volume of some older much bigger boats which makes for a tempting option but I'd have to see them in person I think to know how they really feel.

Saw one of these going really well the other day:

Beneteau Oceanis 30.1 boats for sale - YachtWorld

As an aside, I notice they now advertise the seacocks as being bronze rather than brass, so that's one less job to do 5 years in.

Oceanis 30.1 - Sailing yachts For Sale | BENETEAU

.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'd be surprised if the build quality could be worse than the AWBs I've been on, ones built between about 1997 and 2007

Here we go!!
I totally disagree. From my own experience & adding that of owning brand new boats, the first I had built in 1968 & my last , a Hanse, I bought new in 2003 I would say that the quality of my Hanse was every bit as good as my first boat. In fact after 18 years it is in better nick now than any of the 100 boats in the same class as my first one was after 18 years. In actual fact the boat built before mine was a virtual wreck, after 30 years- I know , I bought it. I reckon my current Hanse will be in far better condition- if looked after- in 12 years time. I will let you know
I do not believe that older boats - in the same price bracket, of course, are any better

 

[Csfisher]

There is some sense in that. I swapped a 2001 Bav 37 for a 2015 Bav 33. Same waterline length, similar beam and same displacement. However, because the space is used differently, the 37 with its 2 aft cabins and linear galley always felt bigger inside. Key though for me are that the 33 is so much nicer in its construction and is far easier to sail with 106% jib rather than 135% genoa, mainsheet near the helm and aft located winches. Single wheel on mine, but clear to walk around - later ones had twin wheel option.

As it happens as you can see on another thread I am actually buying another (older) "quality" boat. So I shall be selling her soon - not from any sense of dissatisfaction, but simply because I have had my money's worth out of the project and enjoyed every minute, but I want a new challenge and a little bit of fulfilling a life long dream of owning a particular design of boat. Hopefully market prices will hold up so when I am ready it will go quickly at a good price!

How did you find the speed of your 33? Also was it a relatively dry sail or did you notice the chop and spray more in a smaller boat?

 

[Csfisher]

Saw one of these going really well the other day:

Beneteau Oceanis 30.1 boats for sale - YachtWorld

As an aside, I notice they now advertise the seacocks as being bronze rather than brass, so that's one less job to do 5 years in.

Oceanis 30.1 - Sailing yachts For Sale | BENETEAU

.

When I refer to new 30ft that is the exact ad I saw that prompted that comment in fact. Reviews seem popular. I know o wouldn't get on with older 30s having sailed a contessa 32 and equivalents but these new ones seem a lot faster and their layouts are much roomier. A sorely tempting offer especially considering squeezing in to congested Solent marinas would be easier...

 

[Csfisher]

Here we go!!
I totally disagree. From my own experience & adding that of owning brand new boats, the first I had built in 1968 & my last , a Hanse, I bought new in 2003 I would say that the quality of my Hanse was every bit as good as my first boat. In fact after 18 years it is in better nick now than any of the 100 boats in the same class as my first one was after 18 years. In actual fact the boat built before mine was a virtual wreck, after 30 years- I know , I bought it. I reckon my current Hanse will be in far better condition- if looked after- in 12 years time. I will let you know
I do not believe that older boats - in the same price bracket, of course, are any better

Reassuring to hear!

 

[Ammonite]

Thank you all very much with your patience in answering what I am sure is a repeat thread.

It is also very refreshing to hear something other than the same old 'new boats are terrible' opinions that my research seems to drag up.

What I've learnt, from reading your responses is that I think deep down I do want a newer boat. I would love a quality boat like halberg rassy, Island packet etc. I love their little details like struts on the cockpit lockers etc. And the feeling of go anywhere capability but ultimately I think a newer boat sounds like it'll bring me more joy because of their speed, and a little less maintenance at least for the first 5 years or so.

It's unfortunate that I have to compromise, I do like quality. I too have an older 1800s house but at the same time i spend far more time than I care replacing roof tiles or worrying that the pointing is crumbling and sometimes wish I had something newer. With cars however I avoiding buying older high mileage but thankfully they're cheaper than boats so I can buy newer AND quality.

I think I will keep my horizons open with regards to viewings. If a nice older boat presents itself and I go look and it has been exceptionally maintained then that's great, but I feel more confident including the production boats in my search. Thankfully living in the Solent means *most* are only a 15 minute or so drive from me to view.

I shan't ask about Ben Vs Jen Vs bav as I suspect mostly they're very similar and will come down to which I prefer the feel of being on although I'm leaning more towards Bavaria or Hanse at this stage.

Some of the really new smaller boats I think perhaps are even worth considering, some of the 33s or even 30ft boats now have the same waterline length and internal volume of some older much bigger boats which makes for a tempting option but I'd have to see them in person I think to know how they really feel.

A modern boat makes a lot of sense from an ease of use and maintenance point of view and I seriously considered one but to my mind the majority of production boat interiors (post 2015 ish) look cheap and nasty and remind me of a certain furniture store and at the Southampton boat show recently I was amazed just how much money you need to spend to get what I'd consider a "quality" interior and that includes a number of premium brands. I guess its a bit like your house really. Sort out the roof and the pointing and I'd take this over a modern estate house any day but each to his own The only caveat being that the older boat has been looked after and doesn't need a new teak deck!

 

[doug748]

When I refer to new 30ft that is the exact ad I saw that prompted that comment in fact. Reviews seem popular. I know o wouldn't get on with older 30s having sailed a contessa 32 and equivalents but these new ones seem a lot faster and their layouts are much roomier. A sorely tempting offer especially considering squeezing in to congested Solent marinas would be easier...

Well he was going higher and faster than me, though I was having an emotionally testing moment in the strong, gusty breeze and he had a crew.

I think that people go too large sometimes, often for no better reason than that is what the neighbour has got or what they trained on or hired in the Med. Day and coastal sailing, around the Solent is a different matter. Using marinas a lot, you will get turned away less often, have fewer worrying episodes and less work and expense with a smaller boat.

.

 

[Skylark]

It is also very refreshing to hear something other than the same old 'new boats are terrible' opinions that my research seems to drag up.

The responses seem to reflect a majority view which in turn probably represents the majority use. There’s just one post knocking new/modern boats and that one was 100% predictable ?

I bought a new boat 8 years ago. For my sailing aspirations, it made most sense and if I was in the market again I’d probably reach the same conclusion. That said, it’s a personal/family decision and I can admire any boat on the water, without envy of others, there’s room for us all.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Tranona]

How did you find the speed of your 33? Also was it a relatively dry sail or did you notice the chop and spray more in a smaller boat?

Off the wind fine for speed, windward in flat conditions good, cruising passage times as good as anything its size provided no serious windward work. Very dry even bashing into a chop. Mine is perhaps compromised by the shallow keel and in mast mainsail but both of these were my choice aware on their potential impact. Sail issue partly resolved as just had a new one made in Vectron which has improved things, particularly reduction in leeway. If I had a crew and planned longer cruises I would have gone for the slab sail, with performance sails and the standard deep keel.

Like the several actual owners of newish boats who have posted here I cannot emphasise how well built most are - not just the structure, but the systems as well - despite what the odd surveyor talking to an owner of an old expensively maintained boat he had just surveyed for insurance purposes might say (well he would say that wouldn't he). I expect the surveyor who does my boat when I sell it will say similar things to me and the buyer - along the lines of "these modern Bavarias are well built, this one is in superb condition and will give years of good service (all true)! However, like many I do not care for the latest trends in styling both interior and exterior and think that the "golden age" was 1995- 2015, although there were a few lemons along the way.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Agree with Tranona. I also bought a new boat (well, two now) so it’s probably predictable that I would take that view. ?

 

[Concerto]

I am noticing a general lack of boats on the market right now. I put that down to combination of Brexit and COVID. I'm rather hoping that given time more will come to market and prices will start to drop. I'm not in any rush to buy, and am willing to wait for the right boat to come along.

The thing that hurts me right now, is the 10 year old boats right now don't really appeal to me all that much. The features of new boats that I really like and that set them apart from the older boats, only really seem to be on the 2016+ boats. Things like portholes in the fwd cabin, twin helms pushed right aft, and especially wide beams for example.

Perhaps my best option is to wait another year or two for those 2018s etc to become just a little cheaper an in my price range.

I doubt your £100,000 budget is going to buy a 3 to 4 year old boat with these features. Personally the current offerinsg have been designed for people like you, but not for experienced sailors. Having just had my 41 year old 32ft Westerly Fulmar at the Southampton Boat Show, I heard so many comments about the dislike of the current offerings, not just from people with 40 year old boats but frequently from people with 15 to 20 year old boats from the major mass market builders.

The only reason for twin wheels is due to the massive increase in beam taken almost fully aft in modern boats to create a more spacious interior. As these hulls heel, a central rudder lifts out of the water as the lack of buoyancing in the bow. This has meant fitting twin rudders and twin wheels. Most modern designs need to be sailed close to upright and must reef early, but my Fulmar even when hard pressed only heals at 15 to 20 degrees.

At the same time these modern boats have not increased in weight, but compared to an older Halberg Rassey, they sit on the water rather than in the water. This give a more bouncy ride and are less comfortable to be on in a berth or anchorage with any fast flowing or rougher water. Wave slap under the transom can be very disturbing in an aft cabin. Higher freeboard is almost impossible to get aboard if tied to a longside berth without a set of steps. Using the transom which drops down does make access very easy, but can also be damaged more easily when reversing into a berth. Being berthed stern in a marina is less private than berthing bows in.

Many people say that modern boats are better engineered. However having chatted with a number of crane drivers who lift all types of boats, they all tell me the same about modern boats, lifting staps must be on bulkheads and all interior doors must be shut, then once out of the water the chocks must be on a bulkhead. Many owners find that chocks not on a bulkhead push the hull in and the supposed strength is not sufficient to stop internal doors from either being almost impossible to open or shut. The boats are design for loading s in the water and should be able to be kept out of the water, but ask any marina crane driver to confirm this. The last one I chatted with was from Hythe Marina, so pop over there and have a chat if you do not believe me.

As for your love of windows in the hull, these are fitted because the topsides have also been raised and it is impossible to see out of the coachroof windows. If you have proper framed windows fitted, they are fine. Plexiglass that has been bolted to the hull are fine. Plexiglass that is just bonded looks clean, but having chatted with a selling agent of large motor boats with bonded windows, he told me that big problems are starting to show up with these windows leaking. Just an aside my 7 year old car with an original bonded windscreen has just started leaking, despite never having been in an accident.

Starting to own a boat is so different than crewing on one. You should have gained quite a lot of experience on how to sail (presumeably by racing). You should have an idea of how to navigate, but can you park a boat or fix an engine or a blocked loo? Owning a boat requires these skills and many more. My advice would be to try sailing on some more traditional cruising boats and modern ones to see which you prefer. Joining the Cruising Association might be worth it as a crewing member. No doubt there may be some boats that might offer you a sail, try walking around several marinas and chatting with some owners,.

The decision whether to buy newer or older is your choice, but I am in the older camp - even though I could have bought a new boat. The only way you can decide is look at lots of boats that are for sale within your budget. Overtime your choice will be made by you, not by anyone telling you what to do.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Here we go!!
I totally disagree. From my own experience & adding that of owning brand new boats, the first I had built in 1968 & my last , a Hanse, I bought new in 2003 I would say that the quality of my Hanse was every bit as good as my first boat.

I haven't been on a Hanse, the boats I refer to were Jeanneaus and Beneteaus, late 90's to early-00's models, and over 10 years old when I sailed on them.

I happily acknowledge that Jeanneau and Beneteau make good products, but most of us on this forum don't buy our boats brand new. Most people, buying brand new and offered a choice between a £200,000 boat and a £250,000 boat of the same length will chose the £200,000 one - either that or they'll up the budget and buy a bigger boat from the company that makes the £200,000 one.

I'm sure the majority of buyers are happy with their new boats, but there is no incentive for Jeanneau and Beneteau to make boats which will last a lifetime. I'd guess that few boats are kept by their first owner more than 10 years, and I'd guess that's what these boats are optimised for. That, or 5 years or so as charters.

On these 10+ years old boats, I experienced parts falling off in my hands. At one point on the Beneteau 40.7, which I took from Southampton to Malta, so much water was coming through the deck (I think where screws joined the deck and hull) that the shelves in the forecabin had water an inch deep in them, which sloshed onto the mattress with the motion of the boat. I just found my previous post in which I wrote about this, and am reminded that the top literally tore off the forecabin closet when I lost my balance, wedged against it getting dressed. You could see it was ply or MDF held together with pins or little staples. The latches which secure the cupboard doors were plastic, whereas they would be brass on an older boat, and we had to use squares of gaffer tape to stop them opening.

I asked the surveyor who was surveying my boat last year, what did he think of the latest offerings from Bav,Jen, Ben? His response was the older ones were better built. I keep hearing this from various sources. You can build to a price or for quality but not both. Current production design seems to be about 'what is the minimum we can get away with'

It seems conceivable to me that it's possible to make boats better without spending more money - you don't need to spend more money making the glassfibre thicker, you can just put a ridge in it, along the direction in which it's stressed, in order to make it stronger; you might use a different kind of fastener, or build the cabinets with glue and a biscuit jointer instead of the aforementioned pins. It seems to me that improved and specialised tooling could facilitate this.

Hence I'm quite ready to believe @Tranona when he says the build quality of his 2015 Bavaria is leaps and bounds better than that of his 2001 one. Maybe Hanse were just a few years ahead of Jeanneau and Beneteau in that regard - I can only speak to the boats I've been on.

 

[dunedin]

I doubt your £100,000 budget is going to buy a 3 to 4 year old boat with these features. Personally the current offerinsg have been designed for people like you, but not for experienced sailors. Having just had my 41 year old 32ft Westerly Fulmar at the Southampton Boat Show, I heard so many comments about the dislike of the current offerings, not just from people with 40 year old boats but frequently from people with 15 to 20 year old boats from the major mass market builders.

The only reason for twin wheels is due to the massive increase in beam taken almost fully aft in modern boats to create a more spacious interior. As these hulls heel, a central rudder lifts out of the water as the lack of buoyancing in the bow. This has meant fitting twin rudders and twin wheels. Most modern designs need to be sailed close to upright and must reef early, but my Fulmar even when hard pressed only heals at 15 to 20 degrees.

At the same time these modern boats have not increased in weight, but compared to an older Halberg Rassey, they sit on the water rather than in the water. This give a more bouncy ride and are less comfortable to be on in a berth or anchorage with any fast flowing or rougher water. Wave slap under the transom can be very disturbing in an aft cabin. Higher freeboard is almost impossible to get aboard if tied to a longside berth without a set of steps. Using the transom which drops down does make access very easy, but can also be damaged more easily when reversing into a berth. Being berthed stern in a marina is less private than berthing bows in.

Many people say that modern boats are better engineered. However having chatted with a number of crane drivers who lift all types of boats, they all tell me the same about modern boats, lifting staps must be on bulkheads and all interior doors must be shut, then once out of the water the chocks must be on a bulkhead. Many owners find that chocks not on a bulkhead push the hull in and the supposed strength is not sufficient to stop internal doors from either being almost impossible to open or shut. The boats are design for loading s in the water and should be able to be kept out of the water, but ask any marina crane driver to confirm this. The last one I chatted with was from Hythe Marina, so pop over there and have a chat if you do not believe me.

As for your love of windows in the hull, these are fitted because the topsides have also been raised and it is impossible to see out of the coachroof windows. If you have proper framed windows fitted, they are fine. Plexiglass that has been bolted to the hull are fine. Plexiglass that is just bonded looks clean, but having chatted with a selling agent of large motor boats with bonded windows, he told me that big problems are starting to show up with these windows leaking. Just an aside my 7 year old car with an original bonded windscreen has just started leaking, despite never having been in an accident.

Starting to own a boat is so different than crewing on one. You should have gained quite a lot of experience on how to sail (presumeably by racing). You should have an idea of how to navigate, but can you park a boat or fix an engine or a blocked loo? Owning a boat requires these skills and many more. My advice would be to try sailing on some more traditional cruising boats and modern ones to see which you prefer. Joining the Cruising Association might be worth it as a crewing member. No doubt there may be some boats that might offer you a sail, try walking around several marinas and chatting with some owners,.

The decision whether to buy newer or older is your choice, but I am in the older camp - even though I could have bought a new boat. The only way you can decide is look at lots of boats that are for sale within your budget. Overtime your choice will be made by you, not by anyone telling you what to do.

Concerto, sorry but quite a lot of what you say above is more personal opinion / prejudice and, in some cases, simply factually wrong.

The Fulmar is a brilliant boat for its era - we owned one 15 or so years ago and loved it. Ironically, one of the great things about the Fulmar was that it was the start of a rejuvenation of the Westerly range, with a new designer and a much more modern hull shape and sailing performance, whilst retaining a good solid interior. But it was very much in the “new” camp rather than traditional.

I wonder how much experience you have with modern boats as some of the statements appear to be unfamiliarity. Twin wheels for example are not due to having twin rudders. And a well set up boat with twin wheels is a joy to helm upwind and down, due to the great sight line to the sails, very difficult to get with a single wheel. And avoids the issue on our Fulmar, of the weather helm pulling my son down off the coamings when helming with the extension. The twin wheels are easier for people without strength and weight to hang onto the tiller extension.

So I remain a fan of the Fulmar, as one of the best sailing “modern“ boat of its time. But I have twice updated to what I consider better boats, which were not around when the Fulmars were built - but retaining many of its best strengths.
With every era there are a lot of mediocre boats, some outstanding ones and a few absolute dogs. But it is design and quality that counts, not ”my era is the best”.

 

[Spanjaard]

Well £100 K is a pretty decent budget...

I would concentrate in 5 or 6 models of boats that I would really like. I would stick to the budget and when the opportunity arise… don’t take any hostages: go for a kill – repent later.

Newer or older... go for what you really like. And stick to your budget.