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Csfisher

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I know this is a question that is asked over and over again; and usually sparks a lot of heated debate.

BLUF (Bottom line up front): If you had in the region of £100k to spend on a boat; would you suggest buying a new(er) production boat or an older well maintained sturdier boat?

Background:
- I have a lot of sailing experience, and decided it's time I stop crewing and chartering and get my own boat.
- I live on the Solent, and work full time therefore intend to keep the boat fairly local and therefore most sailing will be coastal and not blue water. If I do go further afield, I'll pick and choose my crossings to avoid serious weather where possible.
- I want something with a reasonable turn of speed; able to passage make at 6kts ideally, but anything above that would be a nice to have.
- Comfortable interior - overnighting for weekends, or staying onboard for multi-week trips for one couple with the occasional landlubber couple in the second cabin.
- relatively minimal maintenance. I have no issue with regular required maintenance, and have no issue using some of my budget to refit a boat if required but ideally don't want to be using all my 'sailing' time working on a boat that needs heaps of work.
- Maximum size would be around 40ft (due to the size of the mooring I have in mind). Ideal would be 36-38ft.
- Easy to sail as a couple or occasionally solo (mostly this just means all lines leading to the cockpit).

My thoughts so far:

New(er): (circa 2-5 year old Bavaria / Hanse / Ben / Jen etc.)
- Biggest downside I can see is the depreciation. Now, I am not buying a boat as an investment, but I am aware that if circumstances change and I end up having to sell early the big loss will sting.
- I have of course heard the horror stories over the quality of newer boats. I haven't spent much time on boats newer than circa 2007 so don't have a lot of first hand experience. Are boats made in the last 3-4 years that bad? From what I've read, some of the production cruisers are now using bett(er) construction methods than they were 10 years ago?
+ Newer I am presuming would be easier to part-finance & insure?
+ The newer designs seem to be much faster, and seem to generally sail very well (in their intended environment - coastal waters).
+ The newer designs interior (if perhaps a little ikea ish) are generally very spacious. Now I know they often have less storage, but that is a compromise I'd be willing to consider.
+ If the boat is 3-4 years old, generally I would expect the sails, spray hood, engine, and most other parts to have a reasonable amount of life left in them so wouldn't have to worry about that immediately.
+ Generally aesthetically newer boats are 'nicer'. They look good and the interiors are lighter and roomier. My concern is, do they stay this way for long?

Older: (circa 1990-1995 Hallberg Rassy 36 etc.)
+ The depreciation curve has mostly flattened. Keep up with maintenance and I don't see myself loosing a great deal of money on the right boat (HR for example).
+ Sturdier, capable of more than anything I'd probably want to do. No keel falling off horror stories for example...
+ I do like the CC layout of some of these boats, the aft cabin would suit me very well, although I do know that there is a trade off with sailing capability.
+ With any luck, will have had a lot of systems upgraded / replaced recently
- May be due a bit ticket item such as sails or heads or worse - TEAK DECKS...
+ I actually really like the styling of the HR, very classical lines
- Typically much slower especially for their sizes?
- Often smaller inside, less beam, shorter waterline length etc.
- General wear and tear of old items including deck hardware etc. will presumably require more regular maintenance
- Greater risk of big issues such as osmosis etc.

The third wildcard option: circa 2005 production sailboat and pocket the change to cover costs of repairs / upgrades or to charter abroad occasionally?
-/+ would this be a happy medium of the two? Or am I just going to get the disadvantages of both?
 
Well you are going to start the usual debate and probably end up with a lack of clarity, & going in circles :) but….

If you are looking for something easily single or short handed I’d try and get something with a wheel. Doesn’t need to have modern electronics (as you seem willing to undertake some degree of refit, which could include them). The point being that modern, 9 axis sensors married to the flick of a switch (under deck installed) wheel pilot are a godsend and much easier to use than a tiller pilot. For solent sailing I’d favour a self tacking jib despite some of the drawbacks (you may be able to set a larger Genoa when offshore). Solent is very busy and the ability to flick in a quick tack, with minimal loss of speed is handy.
I’d also mention my transition from 1.42m - 2.1m draft was more restrictive locally than I had thought through
 
matt1 said:
Well you are going to start the usual debate and probably end up with a lack of clarity, & going in circles :) but….

If you are looking for something easily single or short handed I’d try and get something with a wheel. Doesn’t need to have modern electronics (as you seem willing to undertake some degree of refit, which could include them). The point being that modern, 9 axis sensors married to the flick of a switch (under deck installed) wheel pilot are a godsend and much easier to use than a tiller pilot. For Solent sailing I’d favour a self tacking jib despite some of the drawbacks (you may be able to set a larger Genoa when offshore). Solent is very busy and the ability to flick in a quick tack, with minimal loss of speed is handy.
I’d also mention my transition from 1.42m - 2.1m draft was more restrictive locally than I had thought through
Click to expand...

Wheel steering is almost a no brainer for me, even without the ease of use I just prefer the feel of wheel steering.

With regards to self-tacking jib - that was one I was undecided on. So glad to hear someone in favour of them. I do like the idea of them a lot; but wasn't sure just how much power they have. Although from what I can tell, the main sail on the newer production boats is proportionately larger which leads me to think the newer boats have less reliance on the head sail for power? Granted, the likes of Bavaria are shipping their new boats with the self-tacking, plus also a genoa, gennaker, and a code zero so I guess the choice of additional canvas is the way to go.

Does anyone have any insight as to the actual quality of the production of the newer boats, post 2015 say? I know one of the big issues with them is undersized deck gear etc.

How about conversely, what about what it's like actually living with an older boat? Are they a lot of work? Do you ever wish you'd bought a newer boat?

Interesting you mention the draft; I hadn't really considered anywhere in the Solent to be unreachable with a ~2m draft; Where have you found you haven't been able to access?
 
Hey cfisher, you pose a very interesting question.

We’ve just bought a 2006 Catalina 34 and are quite surprised at just how much we’re spending on a boat that’s only 15 years old. In retrospect, perhaps we should have foreseen this. 15 years is about the maximum lifespan of a lot of stuff.

Also, your first paragraph about intended usage could have been written by us. This is EXACTLY what we said to the various brokers. But, having bought the boat we almost immediately started to scale up the scope of our ambitions to something beyond weekends along the coast. So now there’s a lot of additional expense trying to get this relatively light coastal cruiser safer for longer crossing such as Biscay.

Several times recently I’ve wondered whether it might have been better to buy a cheaper older HR and accept the costs of doing her up.

My advice: if you harbour even the slightest notion of doing more than a bit of coastal cruising buy something fit for it and budget for a refurb.
 
Csfisher said:
... If you had in the region of £100k to spend on a boat; would you suggest buying a new(er) production boat or an older well maintained sturdier boat? ...
Click to expand...

Easy, newer sturdier boat.

1. It's a fallacy that older well maintained boats are sturdier.
2. It's a fallacy that older well maintained boats are cost effective.

£100 grand can get you a lot of nearly new boat that is sturdy and will be cost effective by a country mile.

In general terms of course.
 
The reality is that in today's market you will not get a 2-5 year old AWB for £100k in that size range. I have a 2015 Bav 33 which is effectively the smallest model (along with similar from the others) and they are currently changing hands between £85-90k. If you go up to a 37 which is spot on for your requirements £115-120k for a 5-7 year old boat. In my opinion (biased of course!) far better value than a 20 year old "quality" boat in functional and economic terms. But of course boats are emotive things and there is for some a big plus in owning a boat like an HR, Malo, Najad etc. What you miss out on though is the up to date gear, simple construction, low maintenance costs and at least another 5 years without any significant upgrades or replacements.

I bought my boat new in 2015 fully specced and the cost including Coppercoat was just north of £100k. Look at today's selling prices and that answers your depreciation question. My view is that we are entering a period of low or no drop in monetary value of most decent boats, and particularly late model boats. This is for a number of reasons, the main being lack of supply and massive increase in cost of new boats which in turn reduces sales, leading to few trade ins etc (bit like cars). Add in a dose of inflation which will raise the monetary cost of everything and particularly boats and it is clear that now is the time to buy, if you can.

As to quality, this has come on leaps and bounds. This is my second Bavaria, both bought new. The first a 2001 37 was used as a charter boat and survived very well despite (or maybe because of) being a being a bit crude and basic. The 33 is in a different league - beautifully made in a "machine" way with reasonable quality materials, and at 6 years old looks feels and smells like a new boat. Only failures have been on bits that are the same as fitted to just about all boats at any level - Volvo exhaust muffler, Garmin instruments and latest one Lewmar windlass.

I should add that I single hand all the time and the boat is a delight to handle - in mast, all controls aft, push button autopilot and can tack down Poole Harbour like a dinghy. A bow thruster plus big engine makes it easy to park in my restricted berth. Only downside, common with many modern boats, not so comfortable going to wind in a chop.

So my vote would be go modern, but 10 or more years back and your £100k will buy you a really sound up to date boat in your size range with some to spare for upgrades. Thinking Hanse 370, Beneteau 373, Bavaria 37, Jeanneau 379 as examples.
 
Csfisher said:
New(er): (circa 2-5 year old Bavaria / Hanse / Ben / Jen etc.)
…
- I have of course heard the horror stories over the quality of newer boats. I haven't spent much time on boats newer than circa 2007 so don't have a lot of first hand experience. Are boats made in the last 3-4 years that bad? From what I've read, some of the production cruisers are now using bett(er) construction methods than they were 10 years ago?
Click to expand...
I'd be surprised if the build quality could be worse than the AWBs I've been on, ones built between about 1997 and 2007.

matt1 said:
If you are looking for something easily single or short handed I’d try and get something with a wheel. Doesn’t need to have modern electronics (as you seem willing to undertake some degree of refit, which could include them). The point being that modern, 9 axis sensors married to the flick of a switch (under deck installed) wheel pilot are a godsend and much easier to use than a tiller pilot.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised to read this.

I didn't particularly choose a boat with a tiller, it just so happened that the boat I bought had one - I find it quite easy to singlehand.

Compared with a boat with a wheel helm, the tiller may consume more cockpit space but the sheets are always right at hand. You can sail like a dinghy with the mainsheet in one hand and the tiller in the other.

I don't have an experience singlehanding with a wheel helm, but I imagine it harder to reach the sheets during a tack.

A good tiller pilot is fairly easy to use - you just pop it on, press the button which instructs it to sail to the current course and then adjust with the ±10° buttons. Yes, I'd prefer a below-deck autopilot, but don't confuse a cheap plastic tillerpilot with a good one (e.g. Pelagic). I've crossed Biscay mine doing all the steering for over 24 hours in winds of 20 - 30 knots.
 
I asked the surveyor who was surveying my boat last year, what did he think of the latest offerings from Bav,Jen, Ben? His response was the older ones were better built. I keep hearing this from various sources. You can build to a price or for quality but not both. Current production design seems to be about 'what is the minimum we can get away with'
 
James_Calvert said:
Does that only work if you have wind instruments working and integrated?
Click to expand...

No, they will turn through 90deg. Even simple pilots mostly can do this. More advance pilots allow the tack angle to be adjusted and will have an optional wind mode. On a modern boat like mine, with aft set sheet winches, it is easy to tack single handed from the wheel at the press of a button (well actually two).
 
ithet said:
No, they will turn through 90deg. Even simple pilots mostly can do this. More advance pilots allow the tack angle to be adjusted and will have an optional wind mode. On a modern boat like mine, with aft set sheet winches, it is easy to tack single handed from the wheel at the press of a button (well actually two).
Click to expand...
I suppose one of your buttons tells it to go to port for a new starboard tack and vice versa?
 
Go for newer. Go and have a look at the Vigo 35. You might even be able to squeeze a new one (ex-demo) within your budget.
 
I agree that this decision is more about personality than logic. A boat should bring pleasure to it‘s owner. Some people get pleasure from owning and using new. Some people get pleasure from real quality. Some people can afford both but not many fall into that category.

I sail two boat, a 1984 Dehler 28 and a 1989 Baltic 42. I own a 1999 Toyota Amazon and a 1999 Alfa Spider and live in a house from the 1700’s so my preferences are pretty obvious. New, mass production boats I have been on feel cheap and compromised to me but that is only me.
 
Bobc said:
Go for newer. Go and have a look at the Vigo 35. You might even be able to squeeze a new one (ex-demo) within your budget.
Click to expand...
Agree go for newer. However if you are referring to the Viko 35 - have you actually been on it? - you won't get that demo for anywhere near £100k!. Not a good advert for modern boatbuilding either.
 
Csfisher said:
Wheel steering is almost a no brainer for me, even without the ease of use I just prefer the feel of wheel steering.

With regards to self-tacking jib - that was one I was undecided on. So glad to hear someone in favour of them. I do like the idea of them a lot; but wasn't sure just how much power they have. Although from what I can tell, the main sail on the newer production boats is proportionately larger which leads me to think the newer boats have less reliance on the head sail for power? Granted, the likes of Bavaria are shipping their new boats with the self-tacking, plus also a genoa, gennaker, and a code zero so I guess the choice of additional canvas is the way to go.

Does anyone have any insight as to the actual quality of the production of the newer boats, post 2015 say? I know one of the big issues with them is undersized deck gear etc.

How about conversely, what about what it's like actually living with an older boat? Are they a lot of work? Do you ever wish you'd bought a newer boat?

Interesting you mention the draft; I hadn't really considered anywhere in the Solent to be unreachable with a ~2m draft; Where have you found you haven't been able to access?
Click to expand...

I liken a Self Tacking Jib around the Solent to driving an auto Vs manual car around a congested town. You may lose some ultimate performance with the auto on an open road, but around town you will appreciate not being on and off the clutch all the time. As you say, modern top down furlers have eliminated the achilies heel of the self tacker (eg off wind / lighter wind performance).

I've had no build issues on my 2018 Hanse (In fact, having routed a number of cables and additional items I've been pleasantly surprised how many bulkheads and other structural members have been laminated & how thick they are). I have every confidence taking her ocean sailing a few years from now. Equally, a brand new Beneteau I delivered across that Atlantic 20 yrs ago suffered no issues either, straight out the factory and in some demanding conditions off Cape Finistere. Of more relevance to me is maintenance and inspection (eg after any grounding) and keeping the systems or any repairs seaworthy - this applies to any age boat. There are very few boats built post the 1970's / 80's that aren't structurally suitable for their intended use.

In terms of draft, locally in the Solent, Bembridge can be a challenge (a friend with the shallow draft sister ship touched the bottom in the marina there) and even Island Harbour / Beaulieu can have quite narrow windows of entry at certain tides. I guess all I am saying is that short of drying out, my 1.4m draft was never really a consideration but with 2.1 m I have now been restricted on occasion. This has become more of an issue given how impossible it has been during the last 2 seasons with covid to find visitor berths. Good luck in your search
 
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