NornaBiron
New member
Except.....how do you prove the boat is based in Greek waters if you don't haul annually and don't use marinas?
New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
- Start date
Except.....how do you prove the boat is based in Greek waters if you don't haul annually and don't use marinas?
jimbaerselman
New member
Good question. The criteria to be met to prove "based in Greece" have not yet been published.
Steve C Cronin
N/A
All they have to do to catch their own is walk up and down the quays at Vouliagmeni with a book of tax receipts, boarding at every superyacht with a Red Ensign and an SSR number. Our Small Ships Register could solve their revenue problem in a week by insisting on a proof of residency for each yacht registered at Swansea instead of effectively providing a flag of convenience and a registration for any crook who asks for one. I have three for the one boat due to their carelessness!
Steve C Cronin
N/A
GREAT! I've trashed my lift-out and laying up receipt re 20/10/13 to 01/04/14 and the PP office was closed to get the DEKPA stamped. My mooring renewal is 11/05/14.
mocruising
Member
I am assuming most of us on this forum are Brits. having been a member for a few years. Why do we all jump to conclusions and think the worst. There was so much negative in put regarding Turkey over the past years regarding Blue cards. We arrived in Turkey in the spring and have spent the last season up to last week cruising and have had no problems what so ever regarding the Blue card system. We actually prefer Greece , we were there for five years before crossing over in the spring and we will go back. We found Greece more friendly less money grabbing and cheaper than Turkey but we had no problems with the authorities. The Greeks are in a bit of a mess for what ever reason and need to raise revenue, its a very cheap place to cruise (In fact the cheapest) and we have spent a year or more in every European country (From the UK to Turkey) including Croatia and Montenegro from 2002 to date and as I said five years in Greek waters.
Yes it will represent a large some to budget cruisers but there are similar problems I understand in Italy and Spain. (Residency and tax issues) its just a part of cruising these days and I am afraid we will all collectively have to bend over and take it where it hurts most, in our wallets.
Yes it will represent a large some to budget cruisers but there are similar problems I understand in Italy and Spain. (Residency and tax issues) its just a part of cruising these days and I am afraid we will all collectively have to bend over and take it where it hurts most, in our wallets.
macd
Active member
There's a fair bit of evidence that they're now doing precisely that, although how rigorous it is remains to be seen.
charles_reed
Active member
A very common ploy for all politicians, of every political hue and nationality.
Personally I think the leaked details are designed to excite feedback and choose the least unacceptable regime. I'm also sure that the Greeks intend to go through with it. They need the money and they need to catch their own fat cats who have consistently been able to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.
It behoves us well to make our voices heard - reasonably and consistently, not indulging in Daily Mail transports of indignation and half-truth.
Harking back historically, the original tax (which is on the statute book, so law, but never implemented), power boats in excess of 8m were discriminated against and sailboats in excess of 15m were also taxed more heavily.
Such a tax, to catch their own evaders, will need to be a blanket one - an increasing number of more expensive Greek boats are registered under flags of convenience.
Whether much notice will be taken of foreign pressure-groups (CA & RYA) is debatable and the devil as always will be in the detail: how it will be calculated, by whom it will be levied and what strictures will be applied.
As Tony says - "Let's wait and see.."
jimbaerselman
New member
Wise words, as ever, Charles.
Yes, the charge is per vehicle present and afloat in Greek waters, irrespective of ownership. And the responsiblity for producing payment receipts rests on users - whoever is on board.
My experience of trying to put pressure on Greek maritime authorities to change regulations is negative. Charter companies operating many thousands of boats have, for decades, presented evidence on the negative influence of the port reporting regime (DEKPA in every port . . .). Only internal pressure, from marinas, agents and local partners who were missing opportunities, eventually had some effect. In 2005 some DEKPA reporting concessions were introduced. Or at least, I like to think that was the result of our efforts. But 10 years after the event, maybe not!
Now that was a big proportion of the total Greek boat park, handling large numbers of visitors (typically, 40 per boat) who spent freely (on holiday!), and we presented good evidence. Finally, behaviour of the charter companies, actually moving large numbers of boats to Croatia, proved the point. A decade later, as Croatia introduced ever more onerous regulations, most of those companies brought their boats back to Greece.
Live aboards are rather less than 5% of the boat park. Many are frugal, and 10 visitors per boat is about the norm. We have little evidence (apart from individual opinions), that many of these boats will actually leave Greece. Greece remains, even with these charges, one of the cheaper and more attractive cruising destinations in the Mediterranean. Yes, some will migrate. Whether that will be a significant number will depend on individual calculations - especially among the 12m to 15m range. Summer swallows, who spend 4 or 5 months cruising per year, are a bigger proportion than live-aboards. The monthly option will keep costs down for many of these.
So, personally, I find it difficult to make a sound case for putting high effort into modifying the Greek proposals. My view is that affected individuals should make representations to their marinas and boat yards. This will probably be more effective than RYA or CA representation.
Others won't share this view. Let them take up the cudgels . . .
Yes, the charge is per vehicle present and afloat in Greek waters, irrespective of ownership. And the responsiblity for producing payment receipts rests on users - whoever is on board.
My experience of trying to put pressure on Greek maritime authorities to change regulations is negative. Charter companies operating many thousands of boats have, for decades, presented evidence on the negative influence of the port reporting regime (DEKPA in every port . . .). Only internal pressure, from marinas, agents and local partners who were missing opportunities, eventually had some effect. In 2005 some DEKPA reporting concessions were introduced. Or at least, I like to think that was the result of our efforts. But 10 years after the event, maybe not!
Now that was a big proportion of the total Greek boat park, handling large numbers of visitors (typically, 40 per boat) who spent freely (on holiday!), and we presented good evidence. Finally, behaviour of the charter companies, actually moving large numbers of boats to Croatia, proved the point. A decade later, as Croatia introduced ever more onerous regulations, most of those companies brought their boats back to Greece.
Live aboards are rather less than 5% of the boat park. Many are frugal, and 10 visitors per boat is about the norm. We have little evidence (apart from individual opinions), that many of these boats will actually leave Greece. Greece remains, even with these charges, one of the cheaper and more attractive cruising destinations in the Mediterranean. Yes, some will migrate. Whether that will be a significant number will depend on individual calculations - especially among the 12m to 15m range. Summer swallows, who spend 4 or 5 months cruising per year, are a bigger proportion than live-aboards. The monthly option will keep costs down for many of these.
So, personally, I find it difficult to make a sound case for putting high effort into modifying the Greek proposals. My view is that affected individuals should make representations to their marinas and boat yards. This will probably be more effective than RYA or CA representation.
Others won't share this view. Let them take up the cudgels . . .
miyagimoon
Member
It appears that the Marina Union of Greece have issued a press release on this subject, you will need to translate it (Google Translate will do it).
http://www.e-nautilia.gr/2013/11/blog-post_4013.html
http://www.e-nautilia.gr/2013/11/blog-post_4013.html
vyv_cox
Well-known member
Google translate:-
Following press release ' Union Marina Greece on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts ."
COMMUNICATION
The Board of Directors of the Union Marina Greece on " End Residence and commissioning "
To celebrate the addition of amendments to the draft Law of the Ministry of National Defense "Arrangements for the treatment of highly urgent and unforeseen needs " Greek Defence Systems SA " , which was discussed yesterday in the Greek parliament , the Greek Marinas Association , is deeply protest on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts " which will have extremely adverse effects on already any previous environment of marine tourism in our country.
Given the country's need for revenue inflow and acting in a critical environment where :
TAIPED performs the competitions concession marina and tourist boats seeking shelter investors marinas in the country have the lowest occupancy of the last 10 years and are anxious about their viability trying to stem the exodus of tourist boats started from similar measures in the recent past,
the continuous decline in turnover and unemployment soars professionals yachting as ever ,
the Union Marina Greece considers detrimental electricity for a country's economy , as it will result to prevent the advent of foreign vessels in Greece and prosecute those that have chosen our country as the permanent berthing .
More specifically, the action :
Will not achieve the target of additional revenue since it will receive anything from the vessels will leave to competing countries. Rather, it will result in a substantial reduction in government revenue from VAT and other taxes , such as revenues from fuel taxes , due to the departure of vessels within a few months , possibly before the end of this year.
Contributes to rising unemployment among seamen and professionals through retirement vessels.
Causes further insecurity and uncertainty in Greek and mostly foreign vessel owners will avoid our country for the permanent mooring of their vessel
Thus leading the Greek marinas which pay high rents to the State an even more negative outcomes, lower competitiveness and inability to fulfill their obligations.
Send negative messages uncertainty and risk in Greek and foreign potential investors exploitation and tourist ports , while ongoing competitions concession .
Strengthens such actions competing countries , which are directly and effectively exploit our weaknesses to enhance their own marinas within the same field of marine tourism , namely the Aegean and Ionian seas .
The Union Marina Greece proposes to provide effective incentives to attract vessels in our country and in Greek marinas , to enhance the economic value of the sector and government revenues such as:
- Reducing the rate of VAT for berthing and benefits ( in Turkey is zero ), as has been done in hotels and in focus.
- The abolition of all excise taxes, annual and contributory tourist vessels that choose Greece as their permanent mooring and especially foreign vessels that contribute significantly to move high quality tourism in our country.
We urge the Ministry of Tourism and SETE and all stakeholders shipping and tourism public or private nature struggling for tourism uplift the country and upgrading of marine tourism in our country to take a stand and to contribute actively to amend the relevant provisions the Law, so as to prevent their implementation .
Following press release ' Union Marina Greece on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts ."
COMMUNICATION
The Board of Directors of the Union Marina Greece on " End Residence and commissioning "
To celebrate the addition of amendments to the draft Law of the Ministry of National Defense "Arrangements for the treatment of highly urgent and unforeseen needs " Greek Defence Systems SA " , which was discussed yesterday in the Greek parliament , the Greek Marinas Association , is deeply protest on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts " which will have extremely adverse effects on already any previous environment of marine tourism in our country.
Given the country's need for revenue inflow and acting in a critical environment where :
TAIPED performs the competitions concession marina and tourist boats seeking shelter investors marinas in the country have the lowest occupancy of the last 10 years and are anxious about their viability trying to stem the exodus of tourist boats started from similar measures in the recent past,
the continuous decline in turnover and unemployment soars professionals yachting as ever ,
the Union Marina Greece considers detrimental electricity for a country's economy , as it will result to prevent the advent of foreign vessels in Greece and prosecute those that have chosen our country as the permanent berthing .
More specifically, the action :
Will not achieve the target of additional revenue since it will receive anything from the vessels will leave to competing countries. Rather, it will result in a substantial reduction in government revenue from VAT and other taxes , such as revenues from fuel taxes , due to the departure of vessels within a few months , possibly before the end of this year.
Contributes to rising unemployment among seamen and professionals through retirement vessels.
Causes further insecurity and uncertainty in Greek and mostly foreign vessel owners will avoid our country for the permanent mooring of their vessel
Thus leading the Greek marinas which pay high rents to the State an even more negative outcomes, lower competitiveness and inability to fulfill their obligations.
Send negative messages uncertainty and risk in Greek and foreign potential investors exploitation and tourist ports , while ongoing competitions concession .
Strengthens such actions competing countries , which are directly and effectively exploit our weaknesses to enhance their own marinas within the same field of marine tourism , namely the Aegean and Ionian seas .
The Union Marina Greece proposes to provide effective incentives to attract vessels in our country and in Greek marinas , to enhance the economic value of the sector and government revenues such as:
- Reducing the rate of VAT for berthing and benefits ( in Turkey is zero ), as has been done in hotels and in focus.
- The abolition of all excise taxes, annual and contributory tourist vessels that choose Greece as their permanent mooring and especially foreign vessels that contribute significantly to move high quality tourism in our country.
We urge the Ministry of Tourism and SETE and all stakeholders shipping and tourism public or private nature struggling for tourism uplift the country and upgrading of marine tourism in our country to take a stand and to contribute actively to amend the relevant provisions the Law, so as to prevent their implementation .
Glyka
Member
Although the translation made me lol, you get the point.
To celebrate the addition = occasioned by the addition
End Residence and Operate = Residence and Operations(?) Tax (End = Tax = Τέλος).
detrimental electricity = detrimental action (in Greek ενέργεια = energy, action)
Hotels and Focus = Hotels and Restaurants (both εστίαση in Greek)
etc.
Due to breathing problems
I am not able to continue. If you need any further help (which I 'm sure you don't) I will be glad to help.
To celebrate the addition = occasioned by the addition
End Residence and Operate = Residence and Operations(?) Tax (End = Tax = Τέλος).
detrimental electricity = detrimental action (in Greek ενέργεια = energy, action)
Hotels and Focus = Hotels and Restaurants (both εστίαση in Greek)
etc.
Due to breathing problems
I am not able to continue. If you need any further help (which I 'm sure you don't) I will be glad to help.
Steve C Cronin
N/A
I think I understand that and Glyka's "sweet" comments confirm my understanding of the one or two points I was not clear upon. Well said and I hope that their stupid government and the Troika take some notice of it since our representative body (ies)seem to be saying that they just can't be bothered.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Tony Cross ...
I have a lot for time for Jim B and his webs site and all the work he does so it nothing personal
But this is why I refuse to join the boys club (CA ) your happy to take people money but when the a bit of hard word has to be done the CA steps back .
Quote ""affected individuals should make representations to their marinas and boat yards"" BUT your member are paying the CA to representation them or have I missed the point ? .
Nostrodamus
New member
I have to agree on this one. The CA is the cruising association and if it does not try to protect its members in one of the main cruising areas then what is the point of joining.
I know Tony Cross as the CA representative in Greece is very hard working on their behalf and will be trying his best to find out more about this tax. He is not paid by them and members money goes somewhere but the CA always seems to take money and expect those paying members to put all the work in for nothing.
As for the RYA.. complete waste of time.
Sandyman
Well-known member
ha ha ha ha hope you've got your flack jacket on Mark
No doubt plenty of RYA members on here so stand by for incoming
I do agree with you though. Complete waste of time even if it does have the word ''Royal'' in its title
Nostrodamus
New member
ha ha ha ha hope you've got your flack jacket on Mark
No doubt plenty of RYA members on here so stand by for incoming
I do agree with you though. Complete waste of time even if it does have the word ''Royal'' in its title
I'm ready to repel boarders!
Tony Cross
Well-known member
I think you'll find that Jim is expressing a personal opinion on this, as he is perfectly entitled to do. I happen to know that the question of the CA's response to this tax is being raised at the CA AGM at the end of this month.
It seems that not only are people jumping to conclusions about what the final form of this tax will be, but they are also jumping to conclusions about the Cruising Association's response to it. So once again I suggest that before we start spitting fire and brimstone in all directions we wait and see what actually transpires.
jimbaerselman
New member
You're reading it completely wrong. Appropriate reaction is being discussed in some depth within the CA, and I'm working full time on it. Unpaid. The first step is to research the background and effects of this proposed tax (if it's implemented) on the various categories of boats which cruise in Greek waters. That's what I'm doing, with a lot of help from this forum, and CA fora. My method includes playing the devil's advocate to elicit more good ideas as to how to go about the task.
We have already concluded, and I have already recommended, that the most immediate and effective action is to harness the efforts of marine suppliers. To do this, direct customer reaction is far more effective than a message from some representative body which they don't know (that's for sailaboutvic!), so we recommend individual boat owners to speak directly with their yards and marinas. The press release posted by Vyv Cox confirms the effectiveness of this approach, which also harnesses the emotions of a much wider community than we'd ever reach; local populations who make a living from yacht visitors. Let them shout for us.
So, please, email your suppliers and argue your individual points of view to provide evidence for them to use in any forthcoming debates.
Further discussions about how most effectively to react if a tax is imposed will take place within CA next Thursday, also at our AGM. We have ideas, but they need further development.
ps, My translation of the tax was "Fees for voyaging", as against Google's "End residence and operate" and "Finally . . ."
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Artic Warrior
Member
I was wondering the same thing,
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
Stop wondering. Frankly, I would tend to keep my head down because proving with documentation that your yacht has been in Greece for one year may swap a 400 euro annual tax with a 23% import tax on the current value of your whole boat.
Remember, few laws are repealed and can co-exist with contradictory laws. Thats how lawyers get rich.
The tax man reminds me of the tower in Mordor when the eye scans the surrounding land like a lighthouse. When the beam sees a victim it stops. A scream is heard which summons the black riders to your doom. Keep your head down.
Remember, few laws are repealed and can co-exist with contradictory laws. Thats how lawyers get rich.
The tax man reminds me of the tower in Mordor when the eye scans the surrounding land like a lighthouse. When the beam sees a victim it stops. A scream is heard which summons the black riders to your doom. Keep your head down.