New Sails

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I am in the market for new sails for my Heavenly Twins catamaran. My current are blown and looking pretty shabby. My criteria is for cruising, light wind performance, strong, durable with good back to base.

I spent a full day calling sail makers before Easter, many fobbed me off, many have not sent out promised quotes, or returned telephone calls. Well that is their loss. I will name and shame, but I expect anyone calling who gets the type of uninterested sales pitch or zero sail pitch will like me quickly move on anyway.

I have narrowed down to two maybe three companies, in the following order;

Kemp - I spoke to Linda Kemp for nearly 40 minutes who was of great help and really interested in my sail needs offering advice and just well really friendly. Their back to base servicing seems second to none.

Sobstad - Who have sent me a very comprehensive quote, and were friendly and courteous. Good prices. My current sails are Sobstad, I am interested in a change, though current sails are over 10 years old, things move on!

Jeckells - who I first met at the SBS, though they seem to have to many hidden charges, everything seems to be an extra, though I have heard good things about the quality of the cloth they sell.

My questions to the forum if I may.

I am toying with a 145% Genoa, my current headsail is 100%, bearing in mind I have a centre located mast, this is quite a large sail, I think 320sq ft. Is this a good idea, will tacking be cumbersome, will I see massive benefits moving up to this size of sail, I am hoping that it will increase light airs performance and the need for a cruising chute will be reduced, what do you think?

Foam luffs - Con? Good? bulky? weak? this is a new one to me.

The mainsail, I currently have slab reefing on my two mainsails, I have a rolling reef boom, I have not really used the boom reefing, which is better, should I stick to two lines of slab reefing on the main?

3/4 batten or normal?

Loose foot, or bolt rope as currently used? I have a sliding gooseneck and currently a leech cunningham, apparently I do not need the cunningham if I have a loose foot, is this right, which is better?

What is 10-12% leech roach?

I know there are a lot of questions, but this is the first time I have ever purchased new sails, the options seem limitless. I would really appreciate any experience and/or advice from the forum.

Thank you in anticipation.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Homepage</A>

 

[david_e]

Not overly familiar with the needs of a cat but:

Genoa - 145% is big, mine is 140% and is enough, can't see where they would get the extra 5% from and would question the effectiveness of it. You will see a marked difference in light air performance, however you might consider going for a more performance oriented material than the norm. I opted for the performance cruising mylar in a radial cut, which so far am delighted with, gives more stability to the larger sail. If you are not racing then a foam luff is worth having for the better furling ability. Don't forget your UV strip, I prefer white but many have blue/red.

Main - I chose fully battened, again very pleased with the stability of it, so would go for 3/4 if that is your only option. Also opted for a performance dacron, no real difference in cost.

Slab reefing will avoid probs getting the sail into the boom with the battens. Can't comment on the foot although loose foot gives more tuning options downwind.

Your extra roach sounds as though it is the extra sail outside of a line drawn from the boom end to the top of the main. Always retain you cunnigham, you might need it when the sail stretches or if you want to raise the boom a little for some reason, useful tuning option.

As for makers; locally JKA are good and are there on site to service any probs you might have, adjustments you need and advice you want. He is busy at the moment so not sure on deliveries. Got mine from Goacher Sails in Windermere, went to the loft and specced them out up there. Considerably cheaper than many others and quick as well, lots of high tech design and cutting equipment.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Chris_Stannard]

I can throughly recommend Kemps, who have made several really good sails for me in the past. I was not so happy with Sobstad sails but things may have changed.

A 140% genoa will not increase the power from your genoa by 40%, headsail aft of the mast is less efficient. What were the original alternatives for your boat, on the whole the designers would have designed with a set of parameters including the maximum headsail size in mind. It might be worth talking to Rob Kemp himself on this one.

I am not familiar with a sliding gooseneck but presume it acts like a normal cunningham, increasing the luff tension. At this point you need to also increase the tension in the leech, hence the leech cunningham. If you are just cruising as opposed to racing, it sounds like an aweful lot of bother. Why not just set the gooseneck, have the new main cut for that and do away with the hassle. you will lose a little but not a lot of speed. Again a good sailmaker will be able to offer good advice.
I do not like the idea of boom roller reeefing personally, there seem to have been several attempts to make it work but none are particularly successful as far as I know. I talked to the technical man from Selden at the Southampton Boat show and he said they had tried to work out a good system without success. If you are sticking to slab reefing why not go for a fully battened main.

On the question of a 10-12% roach I am not certain but think it means the percentage of the main sail outside the natural triangle, formed by the mast and the boom. One of the purposes of battens is to allow the main to be increased in size in this way and a fully battened main allows a bigger sail area.

I currently have a genoa with a foam luff and find it works better when partly rolled than sails I have had in the past that did not have this feature.


<hr width=100% size=1>Chris Stannard

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Jools,

Re 145% Genoa, do your tracks run enough aft to provide good trimming for this, ask how long the foot would be and check it out on board. It will improve light air performance, and will take a bit more work to tack.

Foam Luffs.
I think this has been well covered on the forum, try a search, I don't them and think you would be better off with proper roller reefing, without the for padding.

The Mainsail.
Slab reefing is faster and safer in my book. Check that the roach (sail area outside the line between head of the sail and the outhaul point) will not foul the backstay. 3/4 batten will be fine, a loose foot will improve performance off the wind in my experience, and keep the Cunningham.

Hope this helps

Andavagoodweekend. Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif



Hope this helps.

Andavagoodweekend. Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

my boom roller reefing does not roll the mainsail into the boom, the boom rolls and the sail wraps around the boom, like jib reefing, the topping lift and main sheet fit to a bar which swivels on the end and a further swivel arangment at the goosneck.

I presume this is not designed to roll the whole sail up, but just to the basic reefing points. Like I said I have never used it, rolling is via a small winch type handle which fits into a square socket by the gooseneck.

mechanically there is very little to it, it is slow to roll though, but like a jib reef it could be rolled by hand should something break. I don't know why I don't use it, maybe just not used to it, has anyone experience of this type of boom, should I be thankfull for it, it carry on with reefing points?

Thank you for the advice so far.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Homepage</A>

 

[kgi]

I have boom furling on my cat (oceanic) and i don't use it as, like you say its slow and the last place i want to be is standing on my coachroof trying to wind it in!!!!! I also fixed my boom so it would not slide and did away with the cunningham, i believe this was a trickle down from the 1/4 ton days ( ecume de mer , arpege etc) as for the genoa, knowing how much you have in the water it may effect your pointing ability.....not that cats of our vintage are that hot to start with, also you will get lots of backwinding going downwind with the main up, my main was built with 7/8 battens and they stop approx ten inches from the mast, makes all the difference off the wind and really tames the main for reefing/dropping as there is no flogging.....if i can help in any other way drop me a PM..........keith

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[david_e]

The other alternative to your boom reefing would be to consider a stack bag, this is my first season with one and so far generally like it. What I found was many sailmakers loaded the price of it but mine came up with the goods. £250. You might have to change your reefing system with it though.

The point made about the genoa tracks is a good one, definately check it out unless you want to fit a new track. Many folk don't adjust their track as they set or reef the genoa but it makes a huge difference to performance. Have found that even fully set that two or three inches trimming on mine had the sail set much flatter, so if you do fit new tracks, sliding cars are the way to go.

Would disagree about the comment on foam luff, I deliberately dont have one but have to suffer creases in the sail when furled. As with the cunningham, no real problem having an extra cringle there for the odd time you might need it.

One point to think about sailmakers, many of them have seasonal pricing, and it is this time of year that they are busiest and probably dearest.

Sails to me are like the engine of a car, you can have the same chassis but get huge differential in performance form having a better engine.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[qsiv]

I wouldnt bother roller reefing the main. You have no opportunity to put any tension along the new foot of the sail as it reefs, thereby effectively deepening the draft in the sail, just as you want it to be flatter.

Go for all teh extra roach you can take without fouling backstays. Loos footed mains are more controllable than a bolt rope. Despite what others say the conventional wisdom in racing circles is to pull the sail right out when running downwind to maximise sail area. If however we are talking reaching/broad reaching then easing the outhaul to generate more depth in the sail is valid.

As for cunningham - if you are having mylar sails, then maybe you can ignore it. With Dacron sails, even in cruising mode, a cunningham is really essential in order to pull the draft forward as the wind increases. Without it you could certainly expect weather helm to increase and in a monohull, generate extra heel.

As for genny - to me 140% is awfully big. It will have to be in heavy cloth to stand the higher wind range, which means that at light wind speeds it will be heavier than desirable. My choice would be something smaller, and a dedicated light wind sail. If you can generate the right luff tension something like Doyle's UPS (a cruisery version of a Code 0) would work vey well, particularly as cats arent that close winded.

As for lofts - I've used UK McWilliams, North and Doyle and had first class service from all. The day to day sails from UK are lasting brilliantly with almost zero stretch in 5 years. The North furling gennaker works well, and the Doyle Code 0 was quite simply the best presented and finished sail I have ever seen - and pulls like a train.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tome]

I recently replaced my 130% genoa with a new one from Arun and specified a foam luff. It sets much better than the old when partially furled so I would disagree with Oldsaltoz (sorry mate!) on this.

Good point about track lengths, and why not put in a 3rd deep reef in the main? I'd never want to go back to boom roller furling - stick with slab furling.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[kgi]

Another point worth remembering is we cannot get our rigs as tight as a monohull, so the mylar sails really are a waste of time, what is the deflection in your forestay, hard on the wind with your present genny? run a second halliard down to the stem when beating and endeavour to measure the curve of the forestay at its widest point , the sailmaker will need to know this if you are going to get a good cat sail, because we (cats) generally don't point as well as our single hulled bretheren it can pay to specify sails cut slightly fuller than the norm..........keith

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[roger]

Roller reefing (main)

I have used a roller reefing main. It was dreadful. The sail bagged and the boom drooped. In addition you have to use a claw in order to have a kicking strap.
Ibought a new jib from Jeckells. It looks al right but I havent used it yet. I did buy at the same time a Furlex furling system with a "tack delay swivel". Its supposed to take out a lot of bag from the sail during the first roll of the jib. Jeckells recommendedNOT using a foam luff.
I bought a main from Jeckells last year. It works well.

<hr width=100% size=1>Roger

 

[coachone]

The way most of the budget sailmaker save on costs is to make the sail in cheaper materials [cloth].
Suggest you ask a quality sailmaker...Hyde, North ,Sobstadt, Doyle,Dolphin [good for cats] what cloth weight and make they would recomend for each of your sails.
Then compare that weight and make with the cheaper makes.
You get what you pay for and there is no substitute for quality materials like Bainbridge sailcloth...paying an extra 15% will mean you have a sail that will hold its shape for much longer.
On the question of foam luffs...if they are properly shaped they work really well.
I would go for all Dacron on a cruising boat and if you can afford it go for tri-radial cut on the genoa, as it will keep its' shape for longer.
Stick with a fully battened, slab reefed main,dropping into a stackpack....they are great.
Unless you are fairly experienced I wouldn't go for a cruising chute, but if you do, buy a quality snuffer [£350] and tell the sailmaker to put plenty of positive luff curve in the luff so that it will fly easily on the run.You can two separate. guys to the tack from each bow and pull it from side to side as necessary.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jeremy_W]

Re: Roller reefing (main)

>>>I have used a roller reefing main. It was dreadful. The sail bagged and the boom drooped. In addition you have to use a claw in order to have a kicking strap.

A system to be avoided at all costs. Slab reefing is a lot faster for bringing the sail down to a manageable size and under control.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Why are dolphin good for cats, is it just experience or are they more innovative rather than just using the same sails for both?

Some great advice, I thank you all.

I think from what has been said,

My head sail can be up to 140% as long as I can run my cars far enough aft, they at this time run 10ft behind the mast, although at that point they are quite hard to get to as they are running alongside the aft cabin. I should look at Dacron, I think it was kemp who said it would be 9oz weight. Chances are I will not be using 140% unless in very light airs in F3 or above I would probably be reefing to 100% suggesting a foam luff might be a good addition to the headsail.

For my mainsail I should keep slab reefing and look towards a fully battened sail with a leech Cunningham. As long as it does not interfere with my back stays, I think I have plenty of clearance as the stays fall substantially aft with maybe 12ft beam at that point. I will continue to not use the boom roller. I do not have a kicking strap though I do have an 8ft track on the main sheet, I think this helps, I do not presently have a lazy jack system and will not until the mast is stepped next winter. I should use a loose ft for better sail shape in light airs.

I am interested in the point of my front stay curve, I will ask the sail makers what they build in for that on a catamaran, I have dolphins website and will endeavour for a quote and info from them.

This is turning out to be a lot harder than I thought.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Homepage</A>

 

[david_e]

It is worth taking your time to get a better understanding of what it is all about, once you have them they are there for a while.

UK sailmakers have a good website
www.dimension-polyant.com is one of the manufacturers as are Bainbridge and Contender




<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[andy_wilson]

Nobody mentioned Sanders of Lymington.

My headsail is by Kemps in Wareham as they were early adopters of a foam luff which is a great way to keep some semblance of shape when partially furled. My foam is getting a bit thin now but the sail is still in good shape.

My main is Sanders. Full top batten with car, long lower battens, all to support maximum roach which was right first time from standard class measurements they had. Leach JUST misses backstay. The foot is cut loose but with a soft sailcloth lens to the boltrope for maximum control of fullness.

It's a beauty and still in perfect shape after 3 seasons. Got a good mid-season price and the hardware is absolutely top notch. Sanders gets a 5 star recomendation.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[coachone]

The guy to speak to at Dolphin is Mathew Vincent he is a cat sailor and in the past has made lots of cruising and racing sails for cats.
Your boat looks like a Twins design so I would have thought he'd have a rig plan, if not you should send him one.
I am very doubtful about the need for a leech cunningham [or flattener] these are essentially racing devices and need an extra purchase and sheave at the boom end.
As the Twins has a modest sail area you might like to talk to him about building the biggest roached mainsail possible.Depending on the leach profile, it will twist off in the gusts up wind anyway and will pay real dividends downwind when the genoa can be shielded by the main.

<hr width=100% size=1>