New engine-crane or manhandle

[rogerthebodger]

I think the objection to your post wasn't anything to do with your, or John's expertise - it was the statement that someone who has done it 4 times is "trained and competent" - I've seen (and done) many things that relied on a degree of luck or judgement, and the luck held. That I got away with it 4 times doesn't make me trained, and luck is not evidence of competency.

Well how do you know John is not competent after 4 times lifting an engine using a boom.

How many times to you have to perform a task to be competent

Please define what makes a person competent ?

In my annual safety inspection it needs to be performed by a competent person but the authorities have no definition of who is a competent person

We have a chief surveyor who used to be an airline pilot captain clear a competent airline pilot but does that make him a competent boat surveyor

I don't know

https://www.managementstudyguide.com/images/competency-elements.gif

 

[Tranona]

Well how do you know John is not competent after 4 times lifting an engine using a boom.

How many times to you have to perform a task to be competent

Please define what makes a person competent ?

In my annual safety inspection it needs to be performed by a competent person but the authorities have no definition of who is a competent person

We have a chief surveyor who used to be an airline pilot captain clear a competent airline pilot but does that make him a competent boat surveyor

I don't know

https://www.managementstudyguide.com/images/competency-elements.gif

Pointless discussion as courts will consider the facts of the case and sometimes recognised qualifications will be required. For example if it is a commercial crane the operator will have to be certified to get insurance. In other cases it will only be "experience" that is used as a test. The problem with private individuals doing this sort of thing is that there is no requirement to have certification, although that would help. In John's situation, for example he cannot skipper a charter boat for reward without his commercial endorsement but he can skipper his own boat with guests. If one of those guests were to claim against him for negligence his qualifications would demonstrate his competence, but another skipper without qualifications could easily demonstrate competence through experience.

Important to remember that in the sorts of scenarios posed here of individuals lifting heavy objects with makeshift gear are personally liable for any damage to property or people from their actions and generally not insured. In the unlikely event of a claim the court would take into account everything put before it in relation to the incident which would be specific. The word "reasonable" features strongly in tort cases so it is impossible to answer your questions in a general sense without the context.

 

[rogerthebodger]

“No one should be a judge in their own cause” but that is what seems to be happening here.

I’m sure we on this forum all have the highest possible respect for each other’s abilities and, dare I say it, for our own.

But, despite people’s best efforts, things can and do go wrong. People get killed and injured; property gets damaged. If they didn’t there would be a lot of lawyers seeking other work.

All I am trying to point out is, that if something goes wrong, and someone suffers, it’s not going to do much good standing in court saying:

“I’ve done it before without a problem.”​

​

“The boatyard lets us do what we like.”​

​

“It’s his own fault for being there.”​

​

“I tell people to keep out of the way.”​

​

“Some blokes on a forum said they had done it.”​

​

“Some blokes on a forum think I walk on water.”​

That’s all.

Yes things can go wrong but providing you have taken reasonable processions to protect any by standers and helpers if an unforeseen event happens procuration have been put in place

When I was lifting my engine out of the companionway I used an A frame and pully and my car to pull the engine up. My wife was watching and I instructed her to keep well out of the way just incase the engine fell. This is taking all necessary care. No one was inside the boat and when lifting down to the ground my trailer was under the engine so again no one could stand under the engine.

From my point of view the lack of knowledge of some members who don't understand the experience of other members.

There is an element of Dunning Kruger syndrome in cases like this

 

[rogerthebodger]

Tranona

Very well put.

When I worked ass a CEng I would profisional indemnity insurance to cove ny issued that this

Now retired and not action n any professional capacity I only do work for myself. Yes I could damage some one else propriety as in a car accident on the road fo which I would be personal liable.

Also if some one cane onto my boat or in my work area without consent that would also be an issue to consider

 

[Poignard]

Yes things can go wrong but providing you have taken reasonable processions to protect any by standers and helpers if an unforeseen event happens procuration have been put in place

When I was lifting my engine out of the companionway I used an A frame and pully and my car to pull the engine up. My wife was watching and I instructed her to keep well out of the way just incase the engine fell. This is taking all necessary care. No one was inside the boat and when lifting down to the ground my trailer was under the engine so again no one could stand under the engine.

From my point of view the lack of knowledge of some members who don't understand the experience of other members.

There is an element of Dunning Kruger syndrome in cases like this

You have completely missed the point.

You began with a sweeping statement.

“As John [Morris] has done an engine lift 4 times he would be considered a trained and competent operator” [Your post #22]

I replied with some perfectly reasonable questions, politely expressed:

“I dare say he [John Morris] might, but by whom?

His insurer? The court hearing the claim brought by an injured person? The boatyard management?” [My post #47]​

Despite all you have said, you still haven't provided any meaningful answers to those simple questions.

The fact that you think he is competent is irrelevant, because you are not qualified to judge.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You have completely missed the point.

You began with a sweeping statement.

“As John [Morris] has done an engine lift 4 times he would be considered a trained and competent operator” [Your post #22]

I replied with some perfectly reasonable questions, politely expressed:

“I dare say he [John Morris] might, but by whom?​

​

His insurer? The court hearing the claim brought by an injured person? The boatyard management?” [My post #47]​

Despite all you have said, you still haven't provided any meaningful answers to those simple questions.

The fact that you think he is competent is irrelevant, because you are not qualified to judge.

So how or who is qualified that any person is competent to to any particular job like lifting an engine out of his own boat.

That to me is the real question that needs answering

I do know that when I was accepted as a CEng it was my pears (other CEng's who judged I was at a level of knowledge and experience to act in the capacity of a CEng

Some one must have judged you to be at an acceptable to be awarded a 2nd Engineer ticket.

Some one judged John Morris to be at a level to be given a skipper ticket and was with me who had to take exam both theoretical and practical to hold a Costal Skipper Ticket.

We are judged in partial fields to be competent in that field.

So who would judge that I or John are competent to lift an engine out of a boat and set it on th ground.

Self appointed officials is that enough. We see self appointed "Experts in all fields"

 

[Poignard]

So how or who is qualified that any person is competent to to any particular job like lifting an engine out of his own boat.

That to me is the real question that needs answering

I do know that when I was accepted as a CEng it was my pears (other CEng's who judged I was at a level of knowledge and experience to act in the capacity of a CEng

Some one must have judged you to be at an acceptable to be awarded a 2nd Engineer ticket.

Some one judged John Morris to be at a level to be given a skipper ticket and was with me who had to take exam both theoretical and practical to hold a Costal Skipper Ticket.

We are judged in partial fields to be competent in that field.

So who would judge that I or John are competent to lift an engine out of a boat and set it on th ground.

Self appointed officials is that enough. We see self appointed "Experts in all fields"

How many times must you be told?

If it comes to a negligence claim, the court would decide, basing its decision on the evidence put before it.

Expert witnesses might be called to give evidence. You, perhaps, might like appear for the man being sued?

The claimant's counsel would doubtless ask you about things such as what load calculations you had carried out, your knowledge of the relevant regulations, the relevance of your qualifications, whether a written risk assessment had been prepared, the lack of safety barriers and warning signs, the sufficiency of competent personnel, etc etc.

You could be in for an uncomfortable few hours. I hope you earn a good fee.

 

[Tranona]

So how or who is qualified that any person is competent to to any particular job like lifting an engine out of his own boat.

That to me is the real question that needs answering

I do know that when I was accepted as a CEng it was my pears (other CEng's who judged I was at a level of knowledge and experience to act in the capacity of a CEng

Some one must have judged you to be at an acceptable to be awarded a 2nd Engineer ticket.

Some one judged John Morris to be at a level to be given a skipper ticket and was with me who had to take exam both theoretical and practical to hold a Costal Skipper Ticket.

We are judged in partial fields to be competent in that field.

So who would judge that I or John are competent to lift an engine out of a boat and set it on th ground.

Self appointed officials is that enough. We see self appointed "Experts in all fields"

You are still missing the point. There is no definitive way of judging "competence", although there are in many situations recognised qualifications, some of which give a legal right to do certain jobs. I have 3 degrees and a qualification in finance which for example recognise my competence to examine others in several different fields and at different levels. However that would not stop a claimant from challenging the way I carried out that assessment in a particular set of circumstances, just as Poignard describes in relation to lifting heavy loads.

The court is deciding based on the evidence provided by both sides in support and defence of the claim.

 

[rogerthebodger]

With no definitive way of judging "competence"or no definition gives me concern because how do I know if I or a person who says he can lift my engine out is competent to do so.

I can take whatever steps I consider necessary to protect life or propriety.

If this decision can only be determined by a court I would wish to have guide lines as I consider myself a competent person but others may not and take action.

I do consider I have experience and qualification to determine the strength of supporting from many experience. I can do the formal calculations but I don't do the calculations every time I lift any equipment on my boat .