New engine-crane or manhandle

[DownWest]

Here's one I did before.

Boat had been sitting for several years. I was asked to move it, as the land had been sold. Four akros, cross beams, ratchet straps (5 tonne) and four winches. Boat about a ton. Quite simple and most of the people were just looking. Same kit heaved it off back here, where it is nearly sorted.
Off tomorrow to with the same kit to lift a friend's new boat up, to fit the centre plate and put it on the trailer. It is not that tricky if you plan ahead.
Cost: Apart from the effort, several akros that I already had , same with cross beams. Had to buy an extra winch, the others been in use for years.

Rather interestingly, there is (was) a very nice boat in the shed. Bit like a Cornish Crabber, but 30 odd feet. GRP hull, but rest wood. It has been there for a while..not much progress when I was last there.

Oh, on the three or four blokes to lift an engine and get it in place. It doesn't work like that. Constraints with space and movement will always put the load on one or two, So you can't say a 150kg engine can be split four ways at 38kg.

 

[steveeasy]

That sounds great. It’s really a case of you pay your money and make your choice. Or in my case I don’t pay the money.

It was the suggestion that it was a no brainer to pay for a crane that got to me. But there again I’m fortunate that I’ve got a

Don’t let it get to you. As far as I’m concerned it’s a no brainier. Perhaps as I’ve never don’t it your way.
I do quite dangerous types of work and apply the same logic reducing the risks as much as possible. It’s not a weakness though more like common sense.
Steveeasy

 

[Daydream believer]

Bradwell marina's owner got the fork lift & lifted my new engine out of my van. Hooked the old engine in the cabin & lowered it to the ground using crane . Put it into the back of the van, on a pallet, with the fork lift. Hooked the new one up & placed it in the cabin.
All this using a banksman, whilst I stood & watched. He had another job to do, but seeing i was ready early one morning, he changed his plans & carried out my job a day earlier than arranged.
No effort, or stress from me, whatsoever. Bill was circa£ 90 & I thought that very fair.

As an aside.
Volspec had loaded the new engine into my van. I left it there until ready for a week. When they were swopped over, I waited another week, until I had time to unload the old one a few days after the engine had been installed. I made a timber tripod, with a ratchet hoist to lift the old engine up in the air & swing it free of the van. I then lowered it down on to a small trolley, after I drove the van forward. But this was not until I broke a spring in the van, due to carrying, the engines around, for 2 weeks & failed the MOT. I have not had the bill for the new spring yet, but it will be a lot more than £90-00

The problem that followed the crane lift, was getting the engine under the cockpit floor & back 900mm into place on the bearers. Head room approx 100mm. I devised a method to do that on my own up to the point where a friend helped me line up the shaft on the sail drive whilst I lined up the engine. I could not slide it on packers as there is a sump plug & pipe that could be damaged if let to rest on them. Too heavy to lift manually.

 

[blush2]

New engine installation by crane. We used a yacht club crane used for launching dry sailed boats.

Lifting engine to change sail drive seal used block and tackle from the boom.

 

[blush2]

Thinking about it, the second time we replaced the seal, to lift/move the engine we put a suitable length of wood across the hatch opening and suspended the block and tackle from that, which allowed us to slide the engine forward by pushing the wood forward.

 

[DownWest]

Thinking about it, the second time we replaced the seal, to lift/move the engine we put a suitable length of wood across the hatch opening and suspended the block and tackle from that, which allowed us to slide the engine forward by pushing the wood forward.

Some (now) friends with an ex admirals cupper from the carib, had a problem with the Ford 1600 engine. Drive plate broken up. Yard wanted them to move to the lift area and heave it out.
Put a beam over the hatchway and used the chain hoist to pick it up and reverse it to access the drive plate. Changed the bits and back in with no drama. QED.
She is/was the CA sec. Boat a fascinating restoration on a foam sandwich effort.

 

[Poignard]

As John has done an engine lift 4 times he would be considered a trained and competent operator
(...)

I dare say he might, but by whom?

His insurer? The court hearing the claim brought by an injured person? The boatyard management?

 

[mrming]

We just did this with our Fulmar, Beta 28 engine out, refurb (plus new fuel tank), and back in. Should be back in the water next week all going well. Used the Wise hoist at our marina which has a small crane on it.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I dare say he might, but by whom?

His insurer? The court hearing the claim brought by an injured person? The boatyard management?

Experience comes from doing a job several times.

I did an Engineering apprentice in an Engineering manufacturer before going to University to get a Degree in Engineering before elected as a CEng.

I have the papers to prove it so my comments are based on practical experience doing the jobs including rigging and lifting heave equipment

If any one is to be held accountable for any injured person the cause of the injury needs to be investigated and the true reason for the injury determined.

A court hearing need to take into account all factors in the accident

When lifting any equipment the first rule is "don't stand under a suspended item" If any bystander does without instruction the bystander is at is at fault

 

[dansaskip]

1st time I did this job block & tackle using the boom - but then it was a single cylinder engine so fairly light.
2nd time with a bigger heavier engine I got the boat yard to do it using their JCB was quick and easy cost £45
Using a chain hoist is better than trying to man handle but will take longer and it you haven't got a chain hoist - well it cost you around £65 to buy a decent one.
Like many things you pays your money and make your choice.
For speed and ease I'd use crane/fork lift/jcb.

 

[rotrax]

I needed to lift my large Yanmar - 4JH4-HTE - engine about five inches to access three bolts and a bracket that had to be removed to get the injector pump off.

The access for any type of lifting tackle was poor.

First Mate suggested an air jack. Worked a treat!

Job now done and engine starting problem solved.

If anyone needs to borrow an air jack, PM me.

 

[Poignard]

Experience comes from doing a job several times.

I did an Engineering apprentice in an Engineering manufacturer before going to University to get a Degree in Engineering before elected as a CEng.

I have the papers to prove it so my comments are based on practical experience doing the jobs including rigging and lifting heave equipment

If any one is to be held accountable for any injured person the cause of the injury needs to be investigated and the true reason for the injury determined.

A court hearing need to take into account all factors in the accident

When lifting any equipment the first rule is "don't stand under a suspended item" If any bystander does without instruction the bystander is at is at fault

And I have been an engineer in the Merchant Navy and am very well used to the handling of heavy weights: large cylinder heads, pistons and connecting rods, pumps, electric motors, etc.

Although having a 2nd Engineer's Certificate I must confess that I do not have a degree in engineering. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure one would have been of much help when working inside the crankcase of a very large B&W engine, or inside a ballast tank.

My experience is practical. Doing the job in often difficult conditions.

Anyway, that aside, thank you for giving me your views on how a court would view a claim for loss, injury or death.

Are you seriously telling me that if an amateur drops an engine on someone and kills or injures him, the court would accept a defence of "Well he shouldn't have been standing there."?

Seriously?

Are you completely unfamiliar with the law relating to negligence?

Just think of some of the questions that might be asked. For example:

- Was the person in charge of the operation aware of , and did he comply with, the regulations concerning lifting equipment. eg "All lifting operations involving lifting equipment must be properly planned by a competent person, appropriately supervised and carried out in a safe manner."

- What qualifications does he who dropped the engine have?

- What safety precautions were observed?

- Had the boatyard manager given permission?

And so on.

He wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

 

[john_morris_uk]

And I have been an engineer in the Merchant Navy and am very well used to the handling of heavy weights: large cylinder heads, pistons and connecting rods, pumps, electric motors, etc.

Although having a 2nd Engineer's Certificate I must confess that I do not have a degree in engineering. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure one would have been of much help when working inside the crankcase of a very large B&W engine, or inside a ballast tank.

My experience is practical. Doing the job in often difficult conditions.

Anyway, that aside, thank you for giving me your views on how a court would view a claim for loss, injury or death.

Are you seriously telling me that if an amateur drops an engine on someone and kills or injures him, the court would accept a defence of "Well he shouldn't have been standing there."?

Seriously?

Are you completely unfamiliar with the law relating to negligence?

Just think of some of the questions that might be asked. For example:

- Was the person in charge of the operation aware of , and did he comply with, the regulations concerning lifting equipment. eg "All lifting operations involving lifting equipment must be properly planned by a competent person, appropriately supervised and carried out in a safe manner."

- What qualifications does he who dropped the engine have?

- What safety precautions were observed?

- Had the boatyard manager given permission?

And so on.

He wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if I'd allowed anyone to get anywhere near the lifting procedure. I am completely content that I supervised the area adequately and made sure that both myself and anyone else wondering by kept themselves well clear of the danger areas. The boat yard is very happy for people to lift engines etc so long as they use due care and diligence.

 

[rogerthebodger]

And I have been an engineer in the Merchant Navy and am very well used to the handling of heavy weights: large cylinder heads, pistons and connecting rods, pumps, electric motors, etc.

Although having a 2nd Engineer's Certificate I must confess that I do not have a degree in engineering. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure one would have been of much help when working inside the crankcase of a very large B&W engine, or inside a ballast tank.

My experience is practical. Doing the job in often difficult conditions.

Anyway, that aside, thank you for giving me your views on how a court would view a claim for loss, injury or death.

Are you seriously telling me that if an amateur drops an engine on someone and kills or injures him, the court would accept a defence of "Well he shouldn't have been standing there."?

Seriously?

Are you completely unfamiliar with the law relating to negligence?

Just think of some of the questions that might be asked. For example:

- Was the person in charge of the operation aware of , and did he comply with, the regulations concerning lifting equipment. eg "All lifting operations involving lifting equipment must be properly planned by a competent person, appropriately supervised and carried out in a safe manner."

- What qualifications does he who dropped the engine have?

- What safety precautions were observed?

- Had the boatyard manager given permission?

And so on.

He wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

In my case this is where my apprenticeship come in.

Also how is a competent person defined

Yes there must be a consideration on safety and also knowledge of what is safe and what is not safe.

You clearly are a competent person based on your experience. The fact you have a 2nd Engineering office ticket indicated you have a level of knowledge and experience to work in a safe manor.

I was also long ago involved in the design of lifting equipment and the legal requirements for safe operation.

This also gives me some knowledge of what is potentially unsafe and knowledge of extra safety procurations needed in that situation.

People can always bring up "what happens if some one get killed or injured. in potentially dangerous situations

Sailing is potentially dangerous but we still go sailing because we take protrusions to reduce any danger.

This i the same when we work in potential dangerous situations.

The useof a boom has been question but it all depends on the strength of the boom and supporting equipment. Booms on boats with engines need to resist bending of normal sailing . Yes they can and do break due to un expected loading and people do fall over board.

When I designed my current boat my life lines are at hip height to reduce the likely of falling over.

The important is to understand the possible dangers and to reduce any dangers

 

[Poignard]

I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if I'd allowed anyone to get anywhere near the lifting procedure. I am completely content that I supervised the area adequately and made sure that both myself and anyone else wondering by kept themselves well clear of the danger areas. The boat yard is very happy for people to lift engines etc so long as they use due care and diligence.

In that case one would sue the boatyard.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if I'd allowed anyone to get anywhere near the lifting procedure. I am completely content that I supervised the area adequately and made sure that both myself and anyone else wondering by kept themselves well clear of the danger areas. The boat yard is very happy for people to lift engines etc so long as they use due care and diligence.

Well said John

Do we have critics who ass u me we don't know what how we secure our work sites

 

[KevinV]

Well said John

Do we have critics who ass u me we don't know what how we secure our work sites

I think the objection to your post wasn't anything to do with your, or John's expertise - it was the statement that someone who has done it 4 times is "trained and competent" - I've seen (and done) many things that relied on a degree of luck or judgement, and the luck held. That I got away with it 4 times doesn't make me trained, and luck is not evidence of competency.

 

[Tranona]

I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if I'd allowed anyone to get anywhere near the lifting procedure. I am completely content that I supervised the area adequately and made sure that both myself and anyone else wondering by kept themselves well clear of the danger areas. The boat yard is very happy for people to lift engines etc so long as they use due care and diligence.

That is the nub of the tests for negligence. Did you owe a duty of care and take reasonable steps to avoid the danger to others.

 

[Poignard]

“No one should be a judge in their own cause” but that is what seems to be happening here.

I’m sure we on this forum all have the highest possible respect for each other’s abilities and, dare I say it, for our own.

But, despite people’s best efforts, things can and do go wrong. People get killed and injured; property gets damaged. If they didn’t there would be a lot of lawyers seeking other work.

All I am trying to point out is, that if something goes wrong, and someone suffers, it’s not going to do much good standing in court saying:

“I’ve done it before without a problem.”​

​

“The boatyard lets us do what we like.”​

​

“It’s his own fault for being there.”​

​

“I tell people to keep out of the way.”​

​

“Some blokes on a forum said they had done it.”​

​

“Some blokes on a forum think I walk on water.”​

That’s all.

 

[penfold]

That's a lot of words to say people lift things DIY at their own risk and injuring 3rd parties is likely to be expensive.