Navigational question, for experienced

[Vik]

Me again with another question.

On a bright day of 29 July 2023 we done a silly thing and without planing sailed to Harwich from Burnham.on crouch, was such a nice sailing.

We overlooked one thing, 30 July everything was against us to come back.

We in Jaguar 25 boat
Wind is 20 knots with gust of 26kn, coming from SW
So right up our nose

We leave at around 5-6am
So once we have to keep SW bearing, we against tide all the time, with current at it's peak of 1.7kn, but average 0.7-1kn

We have to sail close to wind all the time and keep tacking to keep our course.

It was so choppy that was hard even to stand or walk. No coffee, no eating.

On our west tack, we sail against current, south tack current takes us more east.

I have added image with our intended course.

Now my question is this, if in situation where we had to leave in the morning, against tide, and with those conditions, how would you have manage sailing,
Any way to improve ground covered with longer tacks ?
It was so choppy,.we tried to stay close to shore, so would tack quite soon on our south tack.

On every tack it felt like we just, don't make any progress. We sail forward a bit on one tack, we go back to same spot on another tack.

We gave up, and motored to brightlingsea.

this was our first such long sail.

 

[Dellquay13]

Two suggestions.

Whenever possible plan to get favourable tides at critical stages of the passage. In my area 3-4knot tidal streams are common and there are a couple of passages with 6-7 knot flows. Great when streams are fair but If I can’t find inshore or shallow back eddies with counter currents to beat into a foul tide I have to choose a better time.
Choosing a better time can help with waves too, wind against tide is likely to be choppy but wind with tide can be a slow swell.

When tacking with strong tides, try to hold the tack with the tide on the Lee bow as much as you can, the tide then helps make better progress to windward.
Your tack track shows how tide on the windward bow on both tacks makes a very tight sawtooth pattern with very little progress up wind.

 

[Biggles Wader]

I would suggest that in a smallish cruising boat trying to sail against wind and tide is likely to be a futile exercise. Best to wait five or so hours and enjoy the trip.

 

[Minchsailor]

If beating on a smallish boat (or even a largish one), always try yo go with the tide. If it gets too uncomfortable there is no dishonour in turning back - at least that way you will have a downhill sail!!.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Some of those sailors that claim to make to windward in F7s in small boats would do well to read this.

 

[PCUK]

Sounds like a great trip, not what you wanted but but good experience and the fact that you made some progress before admitting defeat was a success in itself.

 

[kwb78]

It’s almost never worth it going against wind and tide along the Wallet if there’s any sort of blow. Because it’s shallow and the tide is fast running, the chop is particularly short and unpleasant and makes it very difficult to make progress even if your boat will go to windward otherwise. It just takes ages and you beat yourself up in the process.

Better to stay in bed for a few hours and wait for the tide to change.

 

[dunedin]

The navigational / planning learning should be not to get yourself in a place where you need to go upwind against the tide to get home. Tides and weather are both generally well known 48 hours ahead.
Better to do the hard slog on day 1, in which case if gets too tough are not too far from base. Hence going to a destination in the opposite direction might have been better.
Few sensible skippers leave themselves an upwind into 26knots against the tide, even on a bigger boat.

 

[doug748]

Many folk would start the engine to boost progress, even dropping the headsail and bashing into it but you need a good inboard engine for that to work well.
With an outboard it can still help (if you have enough fuel) but perhaps only on one tack.

You did well, despite the many virtues of the Jaguar 25, bashing to windward is not one of them. It's a good reminder that, on a weekend two way trip, the return forecast is a key planning point.

.

 

[johnalison]

Welcome to the Wallet. I wouldn't dream of sailing against wind and tide in the Wallet, even though my boat at 34' is substantially heavier and faster, though it often suits us to catch slack water at Frinton when going the other way.

The tide runs less close inshore, and this is where you will get less of a sea. You will often see craft quite close in, but there are some significant shallows and obstructions around Clacton, not to mention pot markers, so care needs to be taken.

 

[tillergirl]

I am not supposed to advertise so the mods might zap me. Buy a copy. There are passage planning tables all ready to use. I am afraid plotters cannot provide that sort of information.

Johnalison is spot on; wind over tide in the Wallet in those winds is not the thing to do.

 

[johnalison]

I am not supposed to advertise so the mods might zap me. Buy a copy. There are passage planning tables all ready to use. I am afraid plotters cannot provide that sort of information.

Johnalison is spot on; wind over tide in the Wallet in those winds is not the thing to do.

I am grateful for your approval, but although your use of 'wind over tide' agrees with how I use it, ie, wind and tide in the same direction, this doesn't seem to be universal. If it's any consolation for Vic, wind-against-tide in the Wallet can be even more unpleasant.

 

[MoodySabre]

I would have avoided that scenario but the initial southerly track out past Walton could have kept going right out to the wind farm and then a long tack northwesterly and so on. Lots of tacking where you just go sideways is demoralising.

As said planning is the key. Nonetheless a trip survived and lessons learned so build from there. Enjoy this season.

 

[Birdseye]

Me again with another question.

On a bright day of 29 July 2023 we done a silly thing and without planing sailed to Harwich from Burnham.on crouch, was such a nice sailing.

We overlooked one thing, 30 July everything was against us to come back.

We in Jaguar 25 boat
Wind is 20 knots with gust of 26kn, coming from SW
So right up our nose

We leave at around 5-6am
So once we have to keep SW bearing, we against tide all the time, with current at it's peak of 1.7kn, but average 0.7-1kn

We have to sail close to wind all the time and keep tacking to keep our course.

It was so choppy that was hard even to stand or walk. No coffee, no eating.

On our west tack, we sail against current, south tack current takes us more east.

I have added image with our intended course.

Now my question is this, if in situation where we had to leave in the morning, against tide, and with those conditions, how would you have manage sailing,
Any way to improve ground covered with longer tacks ?
It was so choppy,.we tried to stay close to shore, so would tack quite soon on our south tack.

On every tack it felt like we just, don't make any progress. We sail forward a bit on one tack, we go back to same spot on another tack.

We gave up, and motored to brightlingsea.

this was our first such long sail.

View attachment 174031

you did the sensible thing. You sail for fun not as an endurance test.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Now my question is this, if in situation where we had to leave in the morning, against tide, and with those conditions, how would you have manage sailing,
Any way to improve ground covered with longer tacks ?

You appeared to have made reasonable progress beating into the tide with a strong headwind. Now you know that you can do it, albeit tiring.

With a bit of thought, meals and hot drinks can be planned for before such a journey and the effort reduced.

A great learning experience that should make you a better sailor.

How would I approach it:-

1. Good test the night before and avoid alcohol.
2. A good meal, plain, no strong spices or heavy sources, carb based the night before.
3. Porridge or other slow burn foods for breakfast and no fry up.
4. Take seasickness pills the night before if relevant.
5. Prepare your preferred rough weather meal the night before or morning. I like spuds and corned beef mashed up. Easy to reheat and it sticks to a plate.
- make sure cooker has bum strap and strong bar in front plus dr ent handholds around it.
6. A tip I got on here, prepare hot water in the type of flasks that have a pump action. Or make up tea or coffee in the pump action flask if that’s your thing.
7. I use the thermal cups with lids and spout.
8. Have water bottles on supply in cockpit to sip out of.
9. Stow well and secure down below. Close hatches on secure position, not vent.
10. I prefer light, loose layers, waterproofs, LJ and harness. Gloves and hats available in cockpit. Sunglasses available in cockpit. Towel in cockpit in case of spray. I also have two sets of basic ski goggles, low cost, that allows helm and watch in spray and rain.
11. Have your chicken ports planned including access restrictions.
12. Plan for much longer passage times.
13. If two or more, plan rests, one can catnap in cockpit from time to time.
14. Psych up, know it’s rough but be confident in your preparation.
15. Reef main before you hoist, prepare fairleads positions for Genoa reefing position.
16. Let CG or use RYA Safetrex for your “safety traffic”
17. Enjoy the exhilaration of being at sea in tough conditions, in a controlled manner.

RYA SafeTrx

 

[johnalison]

Blimey. Even I don't take a hot water bottle in July.

 

[boomerangben]

Like so many outdoor sports (walking, cycling etc) sailing is much better enjoyed when you do the hard work at the beginning of the day/weekend and leave the easy bit (down wind, down tide, down hill) for the time when you are beyond your peak performance.

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes the Wallet gets a nice 750mm chop once the wind gets over F6.
For the first trip of the season I always try to go from Bradwell to Shotley & have a thrash up the wallet. I get past the Knoll then set the Aries , trim the sails, enjoy the chop & spend the next 4 hours pewking over the rail. It is a ritual & has been for quite a few years. Not to be sea sick on the first trip is always considered a win. Actually, any trip is considered a win, if I can avoid the mal du mer. But the Wallet holds that special place.

 

[MontyMariner]

I don't know the area, but in general my strategy is to wait for the tide and do long tacks a bit more off the wind.

 

[Boathook]

In the Solent against wind and tide, I do what I can to get out of the tide and engine on. My engine is an outboard, but mounted in a well in the cockpit. When I was working, if I had to run at high revs / power to get back I used a lot of fuel by my standards. If I can get some drive from the main it does make a big difference.