Moving from 1,2,Both switch to VSR

[[176172]]

This is almost as good as an anchor thread.

I think Freedom35 needs to do some homework on PaulRainbow's background.

I have.
He may be qualified to conduct his business, but most certainly not qualified to conduct himself himself in such a manner he has, by continued derogatory personal attacks, a most disagreeable character trait.
He considers all others, those he knows zero about, and cares even less, whose opinions based on their long experience as a 'rant' certainly not not very professional as one should expect, I do hope he has a better bedside manner with those paying his fees.
If, and it is a very forlorn if, that such bullying tactics will mean I will go away, then he is mistaking tolerance for weakness, often a mistake made by those employing such tactics.

 

[[176172]]

He won't do that. Anyone who says "We will not take any lectures from anyone displaying such arrogance" obviously has a closed mind, not to mention breathtaking arrogance!

Your critical views on 1, 2, BOTH are well documented, they certainly colour your opinions of any who advocate employing them, have done very successfully for a very long time, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Quite why that should irritate those advocating VSR is a mystery, those not using VSR here you will note have not criticised VSR, or indeed those employing it, or made derogatory remarks about your and their chosen battery control methods, quite to the contrary, we have said for you to continue with what you prefer or consider best and appreciate and fully understand your reasons for doing so. Such a charitable attitude is crashingly obviously missing in both your and Paul's approach, with respect, a little humility would not go amiss.
As you will see from my previous i have done exactly that which you forecast i would not do.. regarding Paul ... oh dear. I respect Paul for what he has done, Having some knowledge gleaned from starting and building and running a businesses, but here he seems to have dug a hole and is still digging, quite unnecessarily from a professional.
Any further forecasts of what I will or will not do should attempt a degree of accuracy don't you agree? Perhaps your crystal ball is electronic.

 

[geem]

Run your boat how you want, but leaving all batteries in parallel totally defeats the purpose of having separate batteries. If you want to charge all batteries and run all equipment from the alternator, a unidirectional VSR is a safer bet. Not that i expect to to agree.

Firstly, I dont use my alternator to ‘charge’ batteries. I have no need for alternator charging. We sit at anchor for weeks sometimes and never use the alternator to charge. We have a lot of solar, wind turbine and towed turbine and a diesel genset that can run a pair of shore power chargers if we want to but very rarely if ever need to. When we engine over night as sometimes happens when passing behind one of the larger islands in the Caribbean and their is no wind we resort to the engine. I can turn on the smart regulator on the alternator but rarely do this since it gives an aggressive charge to the batteries we simply don't need. My standard regulator on the alternator sits at 27.7 volts (24v boat) and does a good job of running the boat and maintaining the batteries. My systems and those of similar liveaboards are vastly different to those with marina based boats in the UK who hop from one marina to another or may have the occasional summer holiday on the hook for a couple of nights. We have been in our current anchorage for two weeks. The engine hasn't run once. The batteries are separated running on their own mppt controllers, the sun is shining and everybody is happy.

 

[pvb]

Your views on 1, 2, BOTH are well documented, they certainly colour your opinions of any who do.
As you will see from my previous i have done exactly that regarding Paul, and I respect what he has done, he has dug a hole and is still digging.
Any further forecasts of what I will or will not do should attempt a degree of accuracy.

I reckon you're the one in a hole, still frantically digging.

 

[LittleSister]

I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong.

they deny others the choice and right to hold a different opinion, never mind the temerity to voice it.

Has anyone ever done that?

Suggest you read the posts, with best will in the world I can hardly say otherwise.

I've read all the posts, but didn't see anyone saying such things. Can you provide a link?

 

[[70521]]

I have.
He may be qualified to conduct his business, but most certainly not qualified to conduct himself himself in such a manner he has, by continued derogatory personal attacks, a most disagreeable character trait.
He considers all others, those he knows zero about, and cares even less, whose opinions based on their long experience as a 'rant' certainly not not very professional as one should expect, I do hope he has a better bedside manner with those paying his fees.
If, and it is a very forlorn if, that such bullying tactics will mean I will go away, then he is mistaking tolerance for weakness, often a mistake made by those employing such tactics.

Your analysis of the posts here are very different to mine. But what do I know? I've only been a professional engineer for 40 years and throughout that time seen a massive change in technology. While the basics remain the same things do move on and for good reason.

You will be pleased to know that I am finally replacing my 35 year old 1-both-2 switch with something more modern over the next few weeks, before I head off on some long voyages of my own. The change in technology is only after discussing my electrics with several extremely experienced and knowledgeable skippers and a number of academic electrical engineers.

 

[BabaYaga]

If they had been in parallel with the engine battery there is more than a good chnace, make that almost certain, they would have pulled the engine battery down to a level where the engine would not start.

In order to start pulling the engine battery down, the current draw from the shorted batteries would have to be greater than that the alternator can supply, 70 A in my case. What I find unlikely is that such a severe internal short, capable of drawing 70 A +, would develop suddenly, from one moment to the other. It is not a typical failure mode. That is why I consider the risk low.

Motoring along, all engine in parallel, a battery fails and no battery would be capable of starting the engine. All nav equipment stays on, battery monitors look good, no no voltage alarms, all because the alternator is keeping them going. Now, turn the engine off, everything goes off, no power from the alternator. You can't start the engine, your nav gear is dead, your VHF is also dead.

No the battery monitor would not look good. The alternator would be working flat out, still the voltage level in both battery banks would be quite low. Easily spotted by someone paying attention.

I will continue to mention it anytime you tell the World about it, not because i think you need reminding, or because i'm insisting you change it, but because i'm making sure that anyone else that reads it is aware of the possible pitfalls of fitting a headlamp relay, as opposed to a superior device, whatever that device may be.

Why do I come to think of windmills...?

 

[PaulRainbow]

No the battery monitor would not look good. The alternator would be working flat out, still the voltage level in both battery banks would be quite low. Easily spotted by someone paying attention.

How do you figure the battery monitor can tell the difference between the true battery voltage and the alternators output voltage ?

A battery with as shorted cell will read 10v or so on a voltmeter, connect that battery to a charging source, your voltmeter will tell you the voltage of the charging source, turn the charger off and it's back to 10 or so volts.

Is the voltage in both banks going to be low, or not, make your mind up please.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Firstly, I dont use my alternator to ‘charge’ batteries. I have no need for alternator charging. We sit at anchor for weeks sometimes and never use the alternator to charge. We have a lot of solar, wind turbine and towed turbine and a diesel genset that can run a pair of shore power chargers if we want to but very rarely if ever need to. When we engine over night as sometimes happens when passing behind one of the larger islands in the Caribbean and their is no wind we resort to the engine. I can turn on the smart regulator on the alternator but rarely do this since it gives an aggressive charge to the batteries we simply don't need. My standard regulator on the alternator sits at 27.7 volts (24v boat) and does a good job of running the boat and maintaining the batteries. My systems and those of similar liveaboards are vastly different to those with marina based boats in the UK who hop from one marina to another or may have the occasional summer holiday on the hook for a couple of nights. We have been in our current anchorage for two weeks. The engine hasn't run once. The batteries are separated running on their own mppt controllers, the sun is shining and everybody is happy.

OK, you said run the engine with the switch on both, to run all onboard equipment. To say you're not doing it to charge the batteries is somewhat splitting hairs though.

Whilst the switch is on both, the batteries are, nonetheless, all in parallel. Fitting a VSR or low loss splitter to allow the alternator to do what you want, without leaving the switch on both, gives you everything you want. Your solar charging and battery isolation remains unchanged, the alternator runs all systems and you have none of the risks, however small, associated with running with all of the batteries in parallel. If the VSR fails, it fails safe and leaves you with what you have now. It's a more robust and redundant system, with zero drawbacks. However, feel free to stick with what you have.

Do note though, the thread is about a system with a 1-2-B switch and a VSR, see post #42

BTW, i am well aware of spending extended periods away from shore power. By boat may be marina based, but it isn't connected to shore power for the whole Summer and i am aboard.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have.
He may be qualified to conduct his business, but most certainly not qualified to conduct himself himself in such a manner he has, by continued derogatory personal attacks, a most disagreeable character trait.
He considers all others, those he knows zero about, and cares even less, whose opinions based on their long experience as a 'rant' certainly not not very professional as one should expect, I do hope he has a better bedside manner with those paying his fees.
If, and it is a very forlorn if, that such bullying tactics will mean I will go away, then he is mistaking tolerance for weakness, often a mistake made by those employing such tactics.

One last try.....

Does require you to consider what i have said, might you do that for a brief moment ? The text in bold are genuine questions.

Firstly, whilst i consider there to be much better systems than those involving 1-2-B switches, i have at no time during this thread told anyone to remove their switch, or said no-one can use them. On the contrary, as i have said several times, i answered the OPs question by typing him up a schematic and posting it here. The OP has chosen to keep the switch, fine by me. The choice to use a VSR was his, see post#1. My schematic reflects the facts that he has a 1-2-B switch and a VSR.

Why do you insist on saying that you are being told that you should not use a 1-2-B switch and you must use a VSR ? Please provide a link to where i have said this ?

As to your use of the switch, you are (again, i've said it before) you are free to use it how ever you want, it's your boat. Consider this though, why do you have separate batteries ?

I'll guess here, it's so you have a backup battery and don't get left with no means of starting the engine. If that's the case, then all of the time you have the switch set to both, you negate that safety feature. Something, however remote, could go wrong and leave you with no power. It's very easy to retain the 1-2-B switch, yet still be able to charge all batteries, risk free, fit a split charge system. Doesn't have to be a VSR, there are several options, the VSR was included in my schematic because that's what the OP has, a low loss splitter is equally appropriate.

I have no axe to grind, i don't sell switches, VSRs or other charging equipment. I design and install systems for all manner of boats, from very simple arrangements to very complex systems with multiple battery banks and multiple charging sources, using whatever equipment is appropriate. I post on here freely and try to give the best and most up to date advice, that may change as time goes by (a few years ago the advice might have been to fit a diode, not any more). You are free to take the advice, or not.

 

[geem]

E

OK, you said run the engine with the switch on both, to run all onboard equipment. To say you're not doing it to charge the batteries is somewhat splitting hairs though.

Whilst the switch is on both the batteries are, nonetheless, all in parallel. Fitting a VSR or low loss splitter to allow the alternator to do what you want, without leaving the switch on both, gives you everything you want. Your solar charging and battery isolation remains unchanged, the alternator runs all systems and you have none of the risks, however small, associated with running with all of the batteries in parallel. If the VSR fails, it fails safe and leaves you with what you have now. It's a more robust and redundant system, with zero drawbacks.

except when sat at anchor on solar panels and wind turbine the battery voltage rises in the domestic or engine bank and the VSR closes paralleling the batteries. We then start to stick 29.6v in to engine batteries that are fully charged for several hours each day gassing them for no good reason and potentially damaging the batteries. I dont see the drawback of paralleling batteries if you have good battery monitoring. We dont have a battery monitor. We simply have ammeters and voltmeters for each bank permanently on display in the saloon. When running the engine both ammeters hardly do much charging. If we had a faulty battery it would be immediately apparent. A failed battery is not the end of the world. We have a genset that can charge the batteries. We have two paralleled batteries on the genset. One can be removed to replace a failed engine battery if necessary. Our system is belt and braces. It has to be when cruising in some remote areas as we have done over the last few years. Good quality MPPT charging of each battery bank with the correct charging parameters set for the batteries is far preferable in my mind than paralleling batteries so the engine bank gets the same charge regime as the domestic bank whether it needs it or not

 

[PaulRainbow]

E

except when sat at anchor on solar panels and wind turbine the battery voltage rises in the domestic or engine bank and the VSR closes paralleling the batteries. We then start to stick 29.6v in to engine batteries that are fully charged for several hours each day gassing them for no good reason and potentially damaging the batteries. I dont see the drawback of paralleling batteries if you have good battery monitoring. We dont have a battery monitor. We simply have ammeters and voltmeters for each bank permanently on display in the saloon. When running the engine both ammeters hardly do much charging. If we had a faulty battery it would be immediately apparent. A failed battery is not the end of the world. We have a genset that can charge the batteries. We have two paralleled batteries on the genset. One can be removed to replace a failed engine battery if necessary. Our system is belt and braces. It has to be when cruising in some remote areas as we have done over the last few years. Good quality MPPT charging of each battery bank with the correct charging parameters set for the batteries is far preferable in my mind than paralleling batteries so the engine bank gets the same charge regime as the domestic bank whether it needs it or not

Uni-sensing VSR would normally be OK, but as you have a small solar panel for the engine battery, that's likely to close the VSR. A low loss splitter only works with alternator charging., so that works OK. But i'd stick with what you have, saves a lot of forum debate

 

[BabaYaga]

How do you figure the battery monitor can tell the difference between the true battery voltage and the alternators output voltage ?

A battery with as shorted cell will read 10v or so on a voltmeter, connect that battery to a charging source, your voltmeter will tell you the voltage of the charging source, turn the charger off and it's back to 10 or so volts.

Is the voltage in both banks going to be low, or not, make your mind up please.

With the engine running, alternator putting out and batteries in parallel via the relay there will be one system voltage and this is what the monitor/volt meter will read.
The level of this system voltage is the crucial question.
You claim above that the meter will read 'the voltage of the charging source', despite the battery with a shorted cell. Should that be understood as a typical charging level voltage? Or at least a voltage above, lets say, 12,8V? I would think that is not unlikely.
But in that case there is zero risk that the healthy battery would empty itself into the failed battery. Currents are driven by voltage differences and electrons don't run uphill.
For the healthy battery to be at risk of being dragged down, the system voltage must be below the 'true voltage' of the healthy battery. And for this process to be anything like fast, the system voltage would have to be substantially lower.
In other words, the alternator, despite putting out 70 A, would still not be able to maintain normal system voltage, this is my reason for mentioning 'quite low' voltage in my previous post.
The only possible cause, that I can see, for such a low system voltage in this scenario would be a current draw from the shorted cell, well in excess of 70A.
NB I am not saying this could never happen. What I am saying is that it's unlikely that such a failure would develop quickly and unnoticed. Therefore the risk is low IMHO.
You, on the other hand, claim that a failure like this is 'almost certain' (post #83).
This is where we differ.

 

[fredrussell]

OP here again. I feel like the guy that shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Now where’s that entrenching tool...

 

[geem]

Uni-sensing VSR would normally be OK, but as you have a small solar panel for the engine battery, that's likely to close the VSR. A low loss splitter only works with alternator charging., so that works OK. But i'd stick with what you have, saves a lot of forum debate

My small engine bank solar panel is 40w. We are a 24v boat so we have two 100Ah batteries in series. This panel size is sufficient to keep this bank nicely charged and certainly would engage the VSR.
We certainly will be sticking with what we have as it gives far superior battery charging to both banks rather than a charging regime set by the VSR ( in my opinion) which will favour neither set of batteries as two banks become a single bank where the alternator sees the average of the combined bank voltage.
If you have solar on the domestic bank and you are sat at anchor and the dual sensing VSR engages as the battery voltage climbs then the same thing happens. Your solar regulator sees the average voltage of both banks and charges accordingly. Your engine battery gets overcharged and the domestic bank under charged. It may be academic and hard to prove the reduction in life expectancy when you install a VSR but there is certainly an issue with combining batteries of different type and state of charge that is frowned upon in other circumstances. For example, when people add a new battery to and older bank. Batteries of different resistances must see a differing charge. On my banks of batteries I use Victron battery balancers to smooth out any differences in battery voltage. Something I can do when I have 12v batteries in series to make a 24v system

 

[PaulRainbow]

With the engine running, alternator putting out and batteries in parallel via the relay there will be one system voltage and this is what the monitor/volt meter will read.
The level of this system voltage is the crucial question.
You claim above that the meter will read 'the voltage of the charging source', despite the battery with a shorted cell. Should that be understood as a typical charging level voltage? Or at least a voltage above, lets say, 12,8V? I would think that is not unlikely.
But in that case there is zero risk that the healthy battery would empty itself into the failed battery. Currents are driven by voltage differences and electrons don't run uphill.

You don't seem to grasp, the internal voltage of the faulty battery will be just over 10v, the reading at the battery terminals will be that of the charging source, the two will differ greatly.

<snip>

NB I am not saying this could never happen. What I am saying is that it's unlikely that such a failure would develop quickly and unnoticed. Therefore the risk is low IMHO.
You, on the other hand, claim that a failure like this is 'almost certain' (post #83).
This is where we differ.

As i have said, all along, if you are happy to take that risk, to save a few £££s that is your choice.

My choice will be to point out the risk to others, any time i see you advocate what you have.

 

[Poey50]

OP here again. I feel like the guy that shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Now where’s that entrenching tool...

I like a good switch skirmish. There's actually a lot to learn for those paying attention. I've rewired my whole boat on the basis of these arguments. Same with the anchor wars .. keep them coming.

 

[ghostlymoron]

OP here again. I feel like the guy that shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Now where’s that entrenching tool...

Good on you, Fred. Just keep your 12B and install the VSR as per Paul's diagram on #25 and ignore all the subsequent wrangling.

 

[PaulRainbow]

My small engine bank solar panel is 40w. We are a 24v boat so we have two 100Ah batteries in series. This panel size is sufficient to keep this bank nicely charged and certainly would engage the VSR.
We certainly will be sticking with what we have as it gives far superior battery charging to both banks rather than a charging regime set by the VSR ( in my opinion) which will favour neither set of batteries as two banks become a single bank where the alternator sees the average of the combined bank voltage.

I already said the small solar panel would close the VSR during the day. That's why i suggested, in your case, a low loss splitter.

If you have solar on the domestic bank and you are sat at anchor and the dual sensing VSR engages as the battery voltage climbs then the same thing happens. Your solar regulator sees the average voltage of both banks and charges accordingly. Your engine battery gets overcharged and the domestic bank under charged. It may be academic and hard to prove the reduction in life expectancy when you install a VSR but there is certainly an issue with combining batteries of different type and state of charge that is frowned upon in other circumstances. For example, when people add a new battery to and older bank. Batteries of different resistances must see a differing charge. On my banks of batteries I use Victron battery balancers to smooth out any differences in battery voltage. Something I can do when I have 12v batteries in series to make a 24v system

Not sure why you've slipped back to dual sensing VSRs, even without the small solar panel, i didn't suggest that you fit one. Way back in post #42 i said "Of course, if you have a large deep cycle bank that you charge at high voltages or regularly de-sulphate, it might be a different story. " I've never said a VSR suits all installations and i've certainly never suggested a dual sensing VSR for yours.

The OP specifically asked how to connect his VSR to his boat, fitted with a 1-2-B switch. That was answered way back.

 

[PaulRainbow]

OP here again. I feel like the guy that shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Now where’s that entrenching tool...

Don't worry about it Fred, it's all good fun.

I usually get attacked if i suggest replacing a 1-2-B switch with separate switches, who'd have thought it would happen when i posted a schematic the actually incorporates a 1-2-B switch.