Moving from 1,2,Both switch to VSR

[[176172]]

They're in the business of fixing boats, not enjoying the use of boats. The biggest drawback of the 1-2-Both switch (apart from frying the alternator if you turn the switch off accidentally) is having to keep changing the switch setting, with the associated risk of leaving it on the wrong setting and flattening the start battery - which I suppose is where Sea Start get involved. Just having two simple on/off switches and a VSR (or low-loss splitter) makes for the easiest possible operation. Arrive at the boat, turn both switches on, use the boat, then turn both switches off when you leave the boat. No risk of a flat starting battery. No risk of a well-meaning crew member messing up the 1-2-Both switch setting.

There isn't any 'keep having to keep changing the switch setting' making the manual system sound work intensive, it is not as you would describe it. I agree it has inherent dangers if used incorrectly, but so does the galley cooker, or the autopilot or the many other things we do on a boat, if done thoughtlessly.

 

[halcyon]

There isn't any 'keep having to keep changing the switch setting' making the manual system sound work intensive, it is not as you would describe it. I agree it has inherent dangers if used incorrectly, but so does the galley cooker, or the autopilot or the many other things we do on a boat, if done thoughtlessly.

Would you buy a boat with only a starting handle ? need the engine started, just turn the handle. no electricity. no need for battery, enviromently freindly.

Brian

 

[geem]

Would you buy a boat with only a starting handle ? need the engine started, just turn the handle. no electricity. no need for battery, enviromently freindly.

Brian

We have a very simple watermaker. No electronics. I have to set the pressure manually, adjust valves manually, flick switches manually. Its such a hardship I don't know how I cope! And that 1,2, both switch. I don't know how I manage! Having to move that heavy black knob about every two weeks. Its such hard work........ i also go for a run cos I enjoy it! We like hiking, paddleboarding, cycling and kite surfing. Why do I do all these things when we could just call a taxi...........

 

[halcyon]

We have a very simple watermaker. No electronics. I have to set the pressure manually, adjust valves manually, flick switches manually. Its such a hardship I don't know how I cope! And that 1,2, both switch. I don't know how I manage! Having to move that heavy black knob about every two weeks. Its such hard work........ i also go for a run cos I enjoy it! We like hiking, paddleboarding, cycling and kite surfing. Why do I do all these things when we could just call a taxi...........

But there are people out there that don't like running, hiking and so on, do you not give them the choice of a taxi ?

Brian

 

[PaulRainbow]

Perfectly logical, but outdated? not so sure. Personall used the the manual system for some 30 years, it becomes automatic to select 2, in my case starter, then switch to both as soon as on course or otherwise settled. Its just a routine I am used to. If solo I select both to start, and leave it there until the opportunity presents itself to revert to 1.
That is not a strict pattern, but a conscious procedure automatically operating from habit. I am not alone I feel sure, no, I know I am not from conversations we social creatures have with our fellow addicts. Those who prefer an electronic system are welcome to it, you pays your money and takes your choice.

Ridiculous system. Running with the switch to both makes having separate batteries a waste of time.

 

[PaulRainbow]

There isn't any 'keep having to keep changing the switch setting' making the manual system sound work intensive, it is not as you would describe it. I agree it has inherent dangers if used incorrectly, but so does the galley cooker, or the autopilot or the many other things we do on a boat, if done thoughtlessly.

Leaving the switch on both is using it incorrectly. The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused.

 

[LittleSister]

I wonder what sailors argued about in the days of paraffin lamps and no auxiliary motors.

 

[ghostlymoron]

This discussion will go on for ever. 1-2-B-O users will never be convinced of the advantages of an automatic switching system. (Until they accidentally drain all their batteries by forgetting to switch from B - possibly by being distracted by some other emergency).

 

[halcyon]

This discussion will go on for ever. 1-2-B-O users will never be convinced of the advantages of an automatic switching system. (Until they accidentally drain all their batteries by forgetting to switch from B - possibly by being distracted by some other emergency).

May I do a little history, let us go back to 1980, the problems and why we bought out the VSR.

1, 2, both, engine start and nav equipment supplied from same battery, low volt and spikes on engine start caused resets and memory loss to radar, sat nav etc. Also operation, alternate battery use, use one for engine start, charge on both or change over, switches were break before make so alternator problems, running all batteries flat, some people had no problems some had major, so big headache to production boat builders.

Relay controlled by alternator warning light. Lucas made one, two main problems, on switching on ignition relay closed, connecting engine and service batteries, on engine start it tried to use service battery at times, result was a fire. Second point, as in above, on engine start you had spikes and low voltage problems to nav equip.

Blocking diodes old problem volt drop, in those days bigger than today, also meant the production builders had to modify the engine charging system.

VSR at the time offered clean starting, automatic operation, so no problem for production builders with owner's usage ( there was a lot of first time buyers ) no volt drop, charge engine battery from service battery with mains charger ( production builders ) fail safe, if it failed you still charged engine battery, simple installation.

That is the background to why we have the VSR, why or what you use is personal choice, no one stops you, just remember the other person may not have your knowledge or ability. All advice given could affect their life and safety.

Brian

 

[PCUK]

Would you buy a boat with only a starting handle ? need the engine started, just turn the handle. no electricity. no need for battery, enviromently freindly.

Brian

I've often thought of fitting a spring starter - the equivalent of a starting handle. No good on common rail of course!

 

[geem]

Leaving the switch on both is using it incorrectly. The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused.

I have no issue with people fitting a VSR. It is entirely their decision. The point is I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong. Explaining the differences is fine. The VSR is wrong for me and lots of others on this forum who have been sailing for 30+ years using a 1,2 both switch quite happily. Use your VSR But dont tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system

 

[[176172]]

Would you buy a boat with only a starting handle ? need the engine started, just turn the handle. no electricity. no need for battery, enviromently freindly.

Brian

Quite what relevance that comment is to preferring what I do is rather difficult to understand.
Of course the answer is NO.
It is MY choice of how much I depend on electronics, YOURS is entirely a matter for you which should not be criticised as apparently you feel somehow intent on doing here for what is entirely a matter for me and me alone.

 

[[176172]]

I have no issue with people fitting a VSR. It is entirely their decision. The point is I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong. Explaining the differences is fine. The VSR is wrong for me and lots of others on this forum who have been sailing for 30+ years using a 1,2 both switch quite happily. Use your VSR But dont tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system

Quite right. The VSR fans seem to be mimicking the PC liberal left lobby, who are so liberal they deny others the choice and right to hold a different opinion, never mind the temerity to voice it.
I do hope I am wrong about them but their posts say otherwise.

 

[lw395]

I have no issue with people fitting a VSR. It is entirely their decision. The point is I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong. Explaining the differences is fine. The VSR is wrong for me and lots of others on this forum who have been sailing for 30+ years using a 1,2 both switch quite happily. Use your VSR But dont tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system

I agree.
I think the big thing to take away from this is the sheer variety of 'systems' people fit once you move away from the good old 1b2 switch.
There are lots of variations and when you come across a boat that's new to you, you often cannot be sure what you have.
Link switches in different circuit positions. VSRs which may or may not be directional. Randomly inserted fuses. 'isolator' switches, which don't in fact isolate the battery.....
And of course there's never much in the way of labeling or diagrams.
Add in a multi output mains charger, a BMS and two iterations of solar, it can all be a bit of a puzzle.
I don't care what other people fit, but please, have a diagram, understand what you have and label stuff?

I quite like the test of 'could I lend this boat to any reasonable YM without needing to spend 20 minutes explaining this?'

Bearing in mind that, it is a boat, it goes on the ocean and it's just possible that water will get in and things will start sizzling... That's when you need to know what's what.

 

[pvb]

Quite right. The VSR fans seem to be mimicking the PC liberal left lobby, who are so liberal they deny others the choice and right to hold a different opinion, never mind the temerity to voice it.
I do hope I am wrong about them but their posts say otherwise.

I'm against 1-2-Both switches, mainly because they need active intervention and have the potential to flatten the start battery if set incorrectly (ask the RNLI and SeaStart!). Also, as this thread has shown, even those who have 1-2-Both switches often haven't a clue how to use them.

Having 2 simple on/off switches works for me. Arrive at the boat, switch them both on. Use the boat, then switch them both off and leave. Nothing else to do; nothing to forget about; no risk of a flat start battery.

And I would add that I'm not a fan of VSRs, and I've never had one. I use a low-loss splitter to sort out the charge to my 3 battery circuits (start, domestic and thruster).

 

[BabaYaga]

May I do a little history, let us go back to 1980, the problems and why we bought out the VSR.

1, 2, both, engine start and nav equipment supplied from same battery, low volt and spikes on engine start caused resets and memory loss to radar, sat nav etc. Also operation, alternate battery use, use one for engine start, charge on both or change over, switches were break before make so alternator problems, running all batteries flat, some people had no problems some had major, so big headache to production boat builders.

Relay controlled by alternator warning light. Lucas made one, two main problems, on switching on ignition relay closed, connecting engine and service batteries, on engine start it tried to use service battery at times, result was a fire. Second point, as in above, on engine start you had spikes and low voltage problems to nav equip.

Blocking diodes old problem volt drop, in those days bigger than today, also meant the production builders had to modify the engine charging system.

VSR at the time offered clean starting, automatic operation, so no problem for production builders with owner's usage ( there was a lot of first time buyers ) no volt drop, charge engine battery from service battery with mains charger ( production builders ) fail safe, if it failed you still charged engine battery, simple installation.

That is the background to why we have the VSR, why or what you use is personal choice, no one stops you, just remember the other person may not have your knowledge or ability. All advice given could affect their life and safety.

Brian

Just two comments to your 'split charging history':

On relays controlled by alternator warning light (or D+, the same thing):
I am not familiar with the Lucas system, but I am pretty sure that most setups of this type does not function as you outline, my own certainly does not.
The relay does not close 'on switching on', but only after the cranking period, when the alternator starts putting out. In other words when the charging light goes out. So neither of the two problems occur (and hard to see why there would be a fire even if they did...)
It might be of interest that Bavaria uses this type of split charging system, at least on some of their models.
The main criticism, at least on this forum, see post #44, is that a catastrophic failure of one battery during alternator charging might bring all the batteries down to a SOC where engine starting is not possible. Paul Rainbow thinks that this could easily happen, my view is that the risk is low. Obviously risk assessment has something to do with habits of monitoring the batteries and how much the engine is run, me <50 h/year.

On VSRs: I think VSRs were a great step forward when introduced some 40 years ago. But they were invented primarily with alternator charging in mind, not sophisticated mains chargers or powerful solar arrays.

 

[geem]

I'm against 1-2-Both switches, mainly because they need active intervention and have the potential to flatten the start battery if set incorrectly (ask the RNLI and SeaStart!). Also, as this thread has shown, even those who have 1-2-Both switches often haven't a clue how to use them.

Having 2 simple on/off switches works for me. Arrive at the boat, switch them both on. Use the boat, then switch them both off and leave. Nothing else to do; nothing to forget about; no risk of a flat start battery.

And I would add that I'm not a fan of VSRs, and I've never had one. I use a low-loss splitter to sort out the charge to my 3 battery circuits (start, domestic and thruster).

We have two large LCD volt meters in the saloon on the main electrical panel. They are back lit so visible day or night. One is the engine battery voltage, the other the domestic battery voltage. You can see at a glance the state of the batteries. If the voltages are the same its a dead give away that the batteries are connected together. In a lifetime of sailing I have never flattened the engine battery by leaving the batteries connected.
I can see on a charter boat that a VSR would have some merit but many people like myself sail without crew so no risk of a numpty doing something stupid. Just me and the wife and we both know how it works. Since we have independent solar charging for both battery banks a VSR has no place on my boat

 

[Graham376]

I'm against 1-2-Both switches, mainly because they need active intervention and have the potential to flatten the start battery if set incorrectly

You're against them, I'm for. Just wish you, Paul and others would accept that we have choice, whether you like it or not. Surprised you're not telling us we should have motor driven engine seacock as well, just in case we forget that as well as the battery switch.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Quite what relevance that comment is to preferring what I do is rather difficult to understand.
Of course the answer is NO.
It is MY choice of how much I depend on electronics, YOURS is entirely a matter for you which should not be criticised as apparently you feel somehow intent on doing here for what is entirely a matter for me and me alone.

Brian (aka Halcyon) absolutely depends on electronics - he makes his living from it!

 

[LittleSister]

I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong.

The VSR fans . . . are so liberal they deny others the choice and right to hold a different opinion, never mind the temerity to voice it.

Has anyone ever done that?