Motion comfort a priority

kolyo

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Whatever you get make sure it has side decks! My last sailing boat had a wide coach roof for more room downstairs. The downside was the big steps up and down to adjust stuff. Doesn't sound much of a problem until you have been up and down half a dozen times. Very straining, especially for the knees.

:ROFLMAO:
 

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LittleSister

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I think the essential conundrum to solve then is your good wife’s abutionary needs,,would she be content with a bucket,porta potty or require a full on boudoir.

A very important point, well made.

I assumed that went without saying, though, given the thread title 'Motion comfort a priority'!
 

oldbloke

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Until very recently "Sailing Holidays" ran a flotilla of Jaguar 27s in the Ionian. One of those would fill your criteria
 

LittleSister

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make sure you understand the frequent expensive maintenance required for a saildrive before you buy one like on that LM pictured above. Save a few thousand pounds every few years by getting shaft drive

The later series of LMs with sail drives - i.e. LM 26, 28, 30, 32 will almost certainly be beyond the OP's budget. These also have the more 'yachty' shaped hull, fin (or a few bilge) keels, and more modern styling.

The earlier LMs 24 & 27 had conventional shaft drives, plus shallow long keels and a hull derived from traditional Baltic fishing boats.

(Do sail drives really = £thousands per annum? I don't know, never had one.)
 
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LittleSister

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Very much a personal opinion, but I have always felt that various sail patterns and rigs have developed over the years to suit the particular winds/ sailing conditions that they were originally used in, the wind and wave patterns in the South China seas suit the Junk rig perfectly, as do the sails of an Arab Dhow suit the waters of the Nile, I can see the attraction of the simplicity of the junk rig, but feel that it it’s performance is less effective in the winds and waters of Europe.

You think that Bermudan rig is only suited to the Caribbean then? ?

Junk rig works perfectly well with European wind (it's not prejudiced!). It carried me and friends very successfully all round the Uk East and Southern coasts, across North Sea to Netherlands, across channel to Brittany, etc. etc.

It is not so close winded as Bermudan, so won't suit those who value that, but it is much better than Bermudan at running. Much easier to handle and reef so great for single/short handing, it's low tech/low stress technology (no need for winches, standing rigging) etc. (Low stress on the crew, too!)
 
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The later series of LMs with sail drives - i.e. LM 26, 28, 30, 32 will almost certainly be beyond the OP's budget. These also have the more 'yachty' shaped hull, fin (or a few bilge) keels, and more modern styling.

The earlier LMs 24 & 27 had conventional shaft drives, plus shallow long keels and a hull derived from traditional Baltic fishing boats.

(Do sail drives really = £thousands per annum? I don't know, never had one.)
A few thousand every 3 or 4 years isn't it? Lift engine to replace the seal? Something enough to be a red line for me. I had an outdrive on motorboat that was similarly expensive to fix and it put me off everything other than shaft drive for life
 
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You think that Bermudan rig is only suited to the Caribbean then? ?

Junk rig works perfectly well with European wind (it's not prejudiced!). It carried me and friends very successfully all round the Uk East and Southern coasts, across North Sea to Netherlands, across channel to Brittany, etc. etc.

It is not so close winded as Bermudan, so won't suit those who value that, but it is much better than Bermudan at running. Much easier to handle and reef so great for single/short handing, it's low tech/low stress technology (no need for winches, standing rigging) etc. (Low stress on the crew, too!)
Am i right in guessing junk rig is not as effective as a Bermudan main for a steadying sail. At times with no wind in the sail. Its not very nice to be motoring with the main flogging with each roll but I have done it a few times to prevent the worst of the rolling in an awkward sea angle. (not that that would be a deciding factor but just curious)
 

Praxinoscope

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Thé foré and aft arrangement of the Bermuda Sloop may have originated in the Caribbean, but it has been substantially redesigned and modified to what we now recognise as a modern fore and aft arrangement and considerably different to its earlier ancestry the junk rig is basically unmodified and remains much the same as its predecessors.
One has to ask why the fore/aft arrangement has been so extensively adopted? Perhaps because it is the most versatile and efficient?
 

LittleSister

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Am i right in guessing junk rig is not as effective as a Bermudan main for a steadying sail. At times with no wind in the sail. Its not very nice to be motoring with the main flogging with each roll but I have done it a few times to prevent the worst of the rolling in an awkward sea angle. (not that that would be a deciding factor but just curious)

It's mixed, I think. Better in that because the sail is fully battened the cloth doesn't slat and flog, but worse in that if the rolling is significant the battens (plastic water piping on my friend's boat) slamming against the mast (wooden in my friends boat) at the end of every roll to starboard was very wearing.

Thé foré and aft arrangement of the Bermuda Sloop may have originated in the Caribbean, but it has been substantially redesigned and modified to what we now recognise as a modern fore and aft arrangement and considerably different to its earlier ancestry the junk rig is basically unmodified and remains much the same as its predecessors.
One has to ask why the fore/aft arrangement has been so extensively adopted? Perhaps because it is the most versatile and efficient?

I have to ask why do you think the winds in Europe are so different to anywhere else?

Prevalence of Bermudan, the modern evolution of it is, in my view, a combination of :
fashion - much influenced by racing and its priority given to close-windedness;,
similarity to the mainly fore-and-aft gaff rig which generally preceded it 'locally' but giving certain advantages (mainly close-windedness and lightness of gear, though also some disadvantages)
culture - the priority given to time in our clock-dominated early industrialised part of the world;
technology - also to do with our early industrialisation - availability of (relatively) high technology and specialised equipment such as winches, high tension standing rigging, shaped sails, etc.;
economy - relatively wealthy society that could afford specialist kit and leisure craft;
prejudice - people, perhaps especially sailors, are pretty conservative, and generally go with what they know.

Junk rig continued to be used in the East because it is very simple, low tech which suited the (then) relatively low level of industrialisation. You don't need specialist tools, materials or skills to make it work or repair it. Broadly the reverse of some of the above points, but familiarity and prejudice part of its survival.

You mention the development of Bermudan, some people have developed Junk rig to make it more close-winded, using articulated battens and all sorts of clever stuff. Good for them, but for my tastes that tends to reduce what I see as one of the main of advantages of Junk - it's simplicity, and that it can (broadly speaking) be modified or repaired using simple everyday tools and basic materials.

Junk isn't better than Bermudan, and Bermudan isn't better than Junk - they each have advantages and disadvantages, which will suit some needs and tastes, better than the other. (Other rigs are available!)
 
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johnalison

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A few thousand every 3 or 4 years isn't it? Lift engine to replace the seal? Something enough to be a red line for me. I had an outdrive on motorboat that was similarly expensive to fix and it put me off everything other than shaft drive for life
I think it was about £800 last time I had mine done. That was about nine years ago, though the recommended interval is seven years. They are not known to fail catastrophically in any case but I might get around to it this year. The boat is going to be lifted anyway for antifouling, so I don’t see the point in spreading misinformation about a moderate cost, which is a small price to pay for smooth running and a guaranteed dry bilge. It is also a job that many people have managed themselves.
 

SaltyC

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A few thousand every 3 or 4 years isn't it? Lift engine to replace the seal? Something enough to be a red line for me. I had an outdrive on motorboat that was similarly expensive to fix and it put me off everything other than shaft drive for life

Not sure where your 'few thousand every 3 or 4 years' comes from. Depending on the source of info / manufacturer the diaphragm recommended replacement is 7 or 10 years.
Cost of diaphragm kit is approx £600 depending on engine.
Labour Man and labourer 1 day £600?? Totally guessing the latter but the job can be done in 4 / 5 hours DIY, but you'd have to pay a day rate.

You do not (in my experience VP and Yanmar) have to 'lift' the engine, just move forward to disengage saildrive spline.

So few thousand = circa £1200, every 3 or 4 years = 7 to 10, many do 15 years and show no deterioration when removed.

So costs have gone from £500 / year to approx £120.

No deep sea seal or dripping stuffing box, no shaft bearing to replace and much quieter and less vibration transmitted to the boat structure.

Yes the yard can damage the membrane when they lift on the leg, they can also bend shafts when lifted on them so no difference in risk and a good yard then pay the repairs!!
 

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ok so £1200 which might be sooner or later owed in full rather than £200 a year. Depending on what point of the cycle you're in. Check for receipts not just take the sellers word it was done, obviously. Also if you buy a 30k boat it will seem a small amount of overall cost, if its a 5k boat less insignificant

A saildrive is a outboard leg full of oil with gears in it. Can you check for water in the oil with the boat in the water? Is there a dip stick to the bottom from inside the boat? Or is it more like an outboard engine leg with a filler plug under water all the time and you can only check with a lift out and crossed fingers the rest of the time? I guess you might not know the gears have been working in a emulsified mess of salt water and oil until you start to hear it whining (edit to say: until you can hear it whining above the sound of the engine. Its forked by that point.) so you're looking at thousands to repair or probably a new leg. I had this with a motor boats outdrive leg.

Or just have a simple metal shaft with a prop on the end and a glad to tighten/fill with grease now and again. Almost zero chance of a surprise multi thousand pound bill.

The only reason saildrive exists is to work with the flat bottom hull shape I'm no fan of anyway so theres no compromise for me.
 
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doug748

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Engine type, a balance of Advantages over Disadvantages. People do like black and white though. Same as much else to do with boats, anyone that tells you they have the right answer off pat, is usually not seeing the full picture.

.
 

kolyo

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Junk rig works perfectly well with European wind (it's not prejudiced!). It carried me and friends very successfully all round the Uk East and Southern coasts, across North Sea to Netherlands, across channel to Brittany, etc. etc.

It is not so close winded as Bermudan, so won't suit those who value that, but it is much better than Bermudan at running. Much easier to handle and reef so great for single/short handing, it's low tech/low stress technology (no need for winches, standing rigging) etc. (Low stress on the crew, too!)
[/QUOTE]

I'm sold!! Will ask the missus to lend me the extra amount on the promise to repay her in kind - comfort!
 
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Praxinoscope

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Litle sister. I question the various variations in sail pattern designs because I changed my sailing area from the Solent/channel islands etc. to the Irish Sea, the wave pattern is different as are the median winds, having sailed to the Azores and the west coast of Southern Europe I ‘ have ‘ felt a difference in these ‘constants’ and have come to a persnal conclusion that certain rigs/ boats suit local conditions better than others.
 
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