Moody v Bavaria

Ken,
I love to round up a gusset, but I am getting too slow to catch them these days.
I do have a problem with my Jeanneau as it wont steer in a straight line unless I trim it correctly for the conditions. I was thinking of fitting an anti roll bar and adjustable shock absorbers. Will that work?

Give the nice man a break. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Ken you are right to ask this question, good point, leave him alone you lot. I've had first hand experience of this. So come on Baveria dealer tell us why the Bav 38 I was sailing last year in a F8 kept rounding up? It's not even that the sails were very efficient, they were knackered.
 
Hi folks,

Why talking in the way which one is good or bad.
The simple question was which one people would prefer. To get the right answer is just looking to the price. The Moodys are still quit expensive after 20 years comparing to new bavs. Is there any reason for it???? To my feeling yes allthough as a moody owner I am biased.
Compare it in same way as comparing a BMW to a ford escort. Of course both cars will bring you there but there is a difference.
Having said that I can only say that I am very happy with my moody.
Nothing negative data of the bavs; everybody have to make their own decision.

Erwin
 
Yes Ken, when we first got our Bav she used to round up quite a lot. Then we learned to sail her properly. It's just that we were used to sailing a lot slower on a MAB and so this rounding up lark was new to us. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Bav34 - not joking - on gusty days I've seen Bavs, Bens and US Hunters having great difficulty steering anything resembling a straight line, going upwind. My question wasn't a poke at Bavs, but a genuine ask about whether the problem has been resolved in later boats.

"It's all you ever see in The Solent ... people clinging on for dear life .... boats on their sides"

No, that's not what happens. The boats round-up, go vertical, give themselves a shake, then lean back over and start plugging away again, until the next gust.
 
As an owner of a 25yo MAB I'm not sure your price comparisons are quite right. The prices for most MAB's are going down and I certainly wouldn't pay £35k for a boat with an original engine.
Someone on here recently posted a link to aredae website called something like soldboats where brokers entered the actual achieved prices on boats they had sold - it did appear that older boats achived a lower %'age of asking price than 5 yo boats.
Overall unless you have the time, money and inclination to spend on maintaining an old boat go for the newer one!
If buying an old boat a surveyor once advised me to avoid ones with "one careful owner" as they will not hav enoticed the gradual deterioration but instead go for one that has chnaged hands every 3-5 years on the basis taht each new owner will spend a few grand on updating before moving on!

Regards
 
People should understand that Lloyds Certificate is not as it first appears ...

It can be issued for a building program where initial build is inspected and passed to Certify. each build subsequent to it receives a certificate based on the INITIAL build. Any modification that constitutes a break with that initail build would render Lloyds Certificate invalid for future builds.
The modification is actually quite large before that occurs.

There are also levels of Certificate ... that have sections regarding materials used, location and situation where built, inspection during building, samples for NDT, full time supervision, random supervision, etc. The variables are many and unfortunately builders can advertise Lloyds Certificate - but then quietly not disclose fully the type and level of certificate.

The above applies to all Classification Societies ... not only UK's Lloyds, but eg Germanischer Lloyds, DNV etc. etc.

For a production boat as Bavaria to have full time Supervision / attendance of Classification Surveyor would be prohibitively expensive. In fact I doubt they had with initial build.

There is also confusion that some people consider that a Company has ISO 9001 or 14001 Certification (Quality Assurance) ... that does not verify quality of product. It verifies traceable records of build ie material supply, who did what and who recorded ... actual product could be complete cr*p as long as documents and traceability is in place.

I post this so people take care when being presented so-called Certificates showing quality of build etc. They often are not what they appear to be.

Back to Bav vs Moody. As others have said you are comparing two completely different marques of boat. Lets say like cars ... a Seat against an Audi for example. Both do the job admirably, but one has more strength or durability than other.
The Moody could look tired and less inviting ... true, it's probably been used seriously. The bav looking clean and bright inside ....

Using another comparison :

A B&Q / MFI flat pack kitchen can look absolutely great - I know I've bought and fitted out 2 kitchens with it. But take my brothers kitchen from real wood built yrs before, looks used but all handles, runners, drawer bases etc. still in place, no top veneer coming away where water seeped into the chipboard carcass ...

Sorry but price reflects build - how many people know that names like Laura Ashley were used for interiors of Moodys back in 80's / 90's fabrics etc. There were other designer names ... not that it really sells a 20 - 30 yr old boat - but indicates the market they were building for.

I will upset people now and say my opinion.

Bav's are targetting a particular part of the market. They are the Ford Escort of the boats. Like the Escort they satisfy a niche ... a large niche ... they provide affordable boats to people. As to how much longer though remains to be seen.

Would I have one ? Yes I would actually as it would suit my needs pretty well and my wifes want for accommodation. It is not my first choice though as I like Nicholsons and other classic boats including Moody's. Like others say - first you have to decide what you need and want from a boat - then find the boat that nearest fits that list.

Guy I know - he had his list ... then the girlfriend got involved ... he bought a US based boat similar price to the Bav ... he admitted that Nige was right 3yrs down the road !
 
It all started when we owned a Sadler 26, passing a larger boat was something of an occassion. We just passed a lot of Moody 31's! When we then moved up to an Etap 28i, phew! No contest!

Sorry. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
But as WayneS says - it does not have to be like that. I had similar issues with mine, being used to an old long keeler. Then I did a delivery passage from Athens to Corfu with a professional skipper who earns his living on these boats. Changed my way of thinking, particularly having furling main - you learn to set and balance the sails in a different way to keep her more upright and bingo rounding up no longer a problem. My aim now is to balance her out so she virtually sails herself - or the autopilot has little to do.

But it gets back to my response to Flaming earlier. My definition of good sailing is making passages at reasonable speed in as much comfort as possible with the minimum amount of effort. You can do this in all sorts of boats if you know how to handle them. But it is no good for the person who wants to tweak the last bit of speed out of the boat.
 
That is perhaps because the cost of making good is a greater proportion of the asking price. New engine 30%+ new sails 15% and so on.
 
[ QUOTE ]
on gusty days I've seen Bavs, Bens and US Hunters having great difficulty steering anything resembling a straight line, going upwind

[/ QUOTE ]

Ken, you are right, and I'm not taking the 'P' this time. The problem though I suspect is more down to the boats being sailed badly rather than the boats themselves.
 
[ QUOTE ]
on gusty days I've seen Bavs, Bens and US Hunters having great difficulty steering anything resembling a straight line, going upwind

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree Ken. So have I. But are you suggesting that other boats DON'T round up in the same conditions? You SEEM to be by your brand selection.

I have probably helmed or sailed on MOST popular boats. That is not an exaggeration. Even a Twister!!! (They know you /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif) I have OWNED ten yachts and in my time have belonged to three yacht clubs where I used to sell my body every weekend just to get a race on some quite 'special' boats.

They range from British Steel Challenge 60 (70?) footers through Rob Humphries one-offs , through 20 knot cats (MOCRA series) down to ... well at what stage does a yacht become a dinghy?

I have competed in COUNTLESS Round The Island races, I have done a Fastnet , I have competed in double-handed Cowes-Channel Light Vessel-Torquay races. Blah, blah,blah.

The ONE over-riding characteristic that I take from all that experience is that narrow beam, long keeled yachts such as yours and my Vega FALL OVER in a gust ...... but keep tracking relatively straight. Take away the long keel fatten up the stern and they fall over and then due to hull shape etc etc, round up. (Let's not even get into initial form stability where my Vega would tip WELL before my Bav.) I know it, you know it.

So why do you nominate the boats that you do? I guess that you have never nearly been over the side in a Dehler 36 .. oh and a 38 .. oh and a Maxi 44(?) .... oh and the Rob humphrys one ...(Diamond????) ...... and don't even get me started on the Sigma racing that I used to do!! That defined wipe-outs! Oh no hang on ... the weeks spent on Sunsail boats might have eclipsed the Sigmas ... or was it just that we were more p!ssed? (from the night before of course /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

BUT you do you seem to pop up when Bavs are mentioned, (then in this case broaden it to Bavs, Bens and US Hunters )when in MY experience ALL fin keeled boats have the same characteristic?

So I just wonder what is the point of your question.

It really is a bit like me entering a debate on boat handling under power and asking '' so, do Twisters/Vegas etc still handle badly astern ... MY boat doesn't!!'' What is the point of the observation other than to be ..... well, I'm not going to say it.

Ok, I'll accept that you're not poking Bavs specifically ..... but perhaps I have a selective memory ... you do seem to be one of the 'bashers'. No?

No offence meant .... I'm not in the best of moods today .... wrapping bl**dy Christmas presents whilst Mrs Bav is out buying MORE /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif :
 
My observation about the Lloyds certificate was slightly tongue in cheek because the poster who raised it was implying that the factory made boats were inferior and one of the ways you can distinguish the older "better" boats is through the certificate. Mine has the series production type certificate which is about process and not the individual build. I expect (but can't be sure) that the older boats would not have been individually supervised either.

But, in a sense its a moot point. I have been involved in building boats under supervision, but it was because they were semi custom and the buyer wanted to be sure that his individual boat was built to the agreed specification. We also went into sea trials and commissioning and I often thought if we built the boat without interference we would not have had such a long list of defects!

No problems with a factory built boat. Mine worked straight out of the box and the only things under warranty were crap deck hatches (Swedish) and a blown head gasket (Swedish Japanese). When you hear some of the problems people have with new semi custom boats from respected builders you wonder why they are paying such a premium.
 
Some (but not all) of the race boats I've sailed on have been hardmouthed in gusts, but because they're racing boats there's a traveller to hand, and someone to dump it when needed. The shape of many modern boats dictates that hike up into the wind if they're pressed, but there's no need for them to be that shape except the max-berths requirements of twin aft-cabins. And then they exacerbate the problem by putting the traveller out of reach when sailing shorthanded. Am I picking on Bavs unfairly? Maybe, just that a 2000 Bav36 was a boat that gave me a great deal of trouble taking it upwind, and I know what I'm doing. I'm hoping the naval architects have sorted that out in current models, which is why I asked the importer.
 
Ballast ratio Bav 31 is 23% whilst that of a M31 is 37%. Do you really think that makes no difference to sailing performance?

I can understand your irritation at the "keel falls off" type of condescending cr*p that is written about Bav in particular, but that doesnt mean they are fault free designs. No boats are including HR and the Swedes. But the point needs making that Bav along with most other budget modern boats achieve low cost by saving on materials as well as volume / efficiency etc and one area of saving is ballast ratio. Of course they are tender - just push down on the side of one in a marina and then try the same with an old Westerly.

Good value boats but you get what you pay for.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ballast ratio Bav 31 is 23% whilst that of a M31 is 37%. Do you really think that makes no difference to sailing performance?


[/ QUOTE ]

Dinghies have no ballast at all so how come they sail well? M31 at 31% could well be a twin keeler and only have half the ballast even giving any righting moment, so 15.5% ballast ratio in practice when heeled? Figures smigures!

As for Bavs being tender compared to others that is not so either as the only factor in stiffness at rest is hull form, a flat hull section is stiffer than a wineglass one even if the latter had 60% ballast ratio. Look in our marina with the wind blowing hard beam on to the boats in their berths and you might be surprised. Some of the boats that can really heel in their berth near us include a Halberg Rassy 43, a variety of Malos and a Sweden 43 all of which is perfectly meaningless.

I have no Bav axe to grind at all BTW and I don't know the model in question nor how well or not it sails.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I'll bite...

I own a '99 Bavaria 31.. probably worth now in the current clime around 38-40k....
Boat is CE cat A, built under Germanschier Lloyds certification, I dont see no veneer on ours.... Sails very well, if not a bit tippy, as she is quite narrow in the beam, but will outsail a Moody 31 any day of the year!

Easy to sail, reliable electrics, fairly simple build, nothing fancy, but all the bits are good quality, (Better I think than the current boat....) We looked at the Older moodies, etc, and came to the conclusion that the Bavaria was tidier, more suitaed to swimbo, and would be more reliable....

In four years of ownership we still have our keel, and the only bit that has been replaced is the Fridge compressor....

The only reason I would change is for something bigger, In comparison to all of the other production boats I have sailed on, she is as good if not better screwed together and finished. The current boats are a lot different, and I would say that the 31 that was built a couple of years ago, is not comparable.

Have fun! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The PY handicap on a Bav 31 is within 20 points of that on a Moody 31 so I dont think you would outsail a Moody. Or indeed the other way round. You'd probably win in light winds, the Moody in anything much over 10 / 15 knots . Which proves nothing much since you're not a racer anyway.

I really dont see the point of these sort of arguments. No one is saying that a new Bav is without merit. To the contrary there are lots of arguments for going that way, not least that the boat wont be worn out as a 25 year old Moody could well be. Instead it will be nice and clean with up to date kit, a modern engine rather than an old Volvo and with plenty of room inside. A lot of boat for the money. As against that it will be undeniably tender, sail less well in a blow, and depreciate more. You pays your money and takes your choice.

If I change boat again it will undoubtedly be for a new BenBav Jeann (probably a First) on the basis that I'd rather pay the depreciation than have the maintenance work.
 
Here's a little poser for you /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

You state

[ QUOTE ]
along with most other budget modern boats achieve low cost by saving on materials

[/ QUOTE ]

and I read that as ''a bad thing'' as though the boat is under-engineered in some way as opposed to , well, um, saving on materials /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

So, given that we intend to keep the boat for at least another 10 years (then it's Spaniel and Cornish Shrimper time /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) ...

what do you think the first failure is going to be? Oh no, I've had my first one .. the rubber plug on the back.

A hinge breaking, a catch failing to work, a winch pulling out of the deck, some internal bonding failure , rudder/keel failure, osmosis, rigging attachments delaminating ????

Come on .... it HAS to be SOMETHING ...so what is your guess.

EXACTLY what do you think is going to go wrong with this 'get what you pay for ' design.

Whatever you guess, I promise I'll get back to you.
 
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