MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[wakeup]

Yes as you have noted CRI is now achievable at 80 or more so this is no longer a problem.

Form factor might be though from what you've said. Would you say that the majority are G4 ampoule type?

I will have a look at the options available for 24v G4s to see what is available.

Sorry for thread drift.

 

[jfm]

Yes as you have noted CRI is now achievable at 80 or more so this is no longer a problem.

Form factor might be though from what you've said. Would you say that the majority are G4 ampoule type?

I will have a look at the options available for 24v G4s to see what is available.

Sorry for thread drift.

Yup I reckon the majority of boats in the last 10 yrs are G4 ampoule types, in cantalupi and similar fittings. Certainly all fairPrinSeekers. And Ferretti et al. Anything over ~50ft is 24v, and below that is generally 12v. It's not OT because V needs 24v ampoule on his boat

I'd love to change all mine to high CRI 24v G4 types, just to cut the battery draw on anchor from 30-40amps (when the boat is busy) to 5. But I'd like to keep the same light fittings, and swap only the bulbs. As far as i can see, Philips dont supply the gear yet... I suppose the marine market is tiny, compared with the domestic market which has millions of 12v installed

 

[MapisM]

Last year, I replaced all my 24V G4 bulbs with some which I bought from this supplier.
Before doing that, I tried just a couple of them (warm white version, obviously) in "parallel" with the original bulbs, and the result was to my eyes good enough.
I'm not aware of their CRI though, actually I tried them because they were the only ones I found as G4, 24V and protected.
Anyway, so far, so good.

 

[vas]

@wakeup, definitely not OT (not the point of this thread to block reasonable drifts anyway! )

Yes I need 24V, currently have snap on (if that's what you call them) halogens like the ones you find in cars and trucks since the 60ies. I obviously don't mind removing the bayonette fixing to a G4 accepting side pinned leds, especially since the 40mm dia disk types are perfect for my size of light fittings.

MM and others, on the link you posted, I can see that some have capacitors on the back (and that's the only thing I can see as the others are too tiny and the photo is front facing). Is a capacitor a reasonable part of a proper driver circuit? Can you confirm the consumption figures are low (unlike the simple stick a resistor at the back solutions on sale)?

Final Q, do these things overheat? I've seen some coming with largish alloy finned coolers, all these are plain, is that ok, or will the fitting start overheating? Mine are ss (by the looks of it!) so nothing to melt (only the ceiling lining...) I'm most likely going to be getting 100-150lumens leds (8-10 SMDs should be plenty as typically my fittings come in triplets)

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Following the order of your Qs:

1) you probably don't need to mess with the bayonet fixing, because there are adaptors available. I also used the 44mm disk type, and even if I didn't have any bayonet, some cabin lights had E27 screw, and I used E27/G4 adaptors. Can't see why there shouldn't be similar adaptors for bayonets.

2) I didn't look at the circuit on the back in detail, but the consumption is definitely low. The website reports 250ma current drawing (which btw should be half of that at 24V, considering the 3W). But what I can confirm you is that on the boat Ammeter, I previously saw a jump of 4 or 5 A when I turned on the 4 lights in the dinette, whilst now it hardly shows 1 more Amp - sometimes, not even that.
See, the display is digital, and it doesn't show the milliamps (and I never bothered checking a single bulb with a tester), but you get the idea.

3) no, they don't overheat at all. With some of my lights, that was a critical reason for changing them, due to their position. Previously, you could have fried your hand by touching the glass. Now, you almost can't understand if it's on or off just by touching it.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I thought the e60 was horrible when it was launched, but have since had one for 5 years, and love it. The styling is still contemporary, and moved large car styling on a huge ammount. The I Drive has improved in usability over the years. I think the main problem when it was launched was it was supposed to replicate a mouse. Great for a LHD car, not so good for a RH person in a RHD car.

I had one of the first Bangle designed E65 7 series in the UK and I must admit that I bought the car despite the styling not because of it but after a few months I began to appreciate that the styling wasn't so much ugly as just different and at least it stood out. Now unfortunately BMW have over reacted to criticism of the Bangle designs and have gone for very conservative Eurobox designs which offend nobody but which IMHO are boring and bland.
Anyone know whether Bangle did any boats?

 

[vas]

Following the order of your Qs:

1) you probably don't need to mess with the bayonet fixing, because there are adaptors available. I also used the 44mm disk type, and even if I didn't have any bayonet, some cabin lights had E27 screw, and I used E27/G4 adaptors. Can't see why there shouldn't be similar adaptors for bayonets.

Thanks for the pointer, didn't know of them, will see and pick accordingly

2) I didn't look at the circuit on the back in detail, but the consumption is definitely low. The website reports 250ma current drawing (which btw should be half of that at 24V, considering the 3W). But what I can confirm you is that on the boat Ammeter, I previously saw a jump of 4 or 5 A when I turned on the 4 lights in the dinette, whilst now it hardly shows 1 more Amp - sometimes, not even that.
See, the display is digital, and it doesn't show the milliamps (and I never bothered checking a single bulb with a tester), but you get the idea.

that's how I also check consumption although my ammeter is analogue

3) no, they don't overheat at all. With some of my lights, that was a critical reason for changing them, due to their position. Previously, you could have fried your hand by touching the glass. Now, you almost can't understand if it's on or off just by touching it.

hm, overheating due to produced heat from the bulb radiated all around is one thing, and yes LEDs are not known for that, so the glass will be cool to touch.
However, the driver circuit or the SMDs themselves maybe heating the pcb and the REAR of the assembly. That's what I'm asking.

Overall, looks like a good solution for boat lighting matched with presence sensors and an aggressive programming of routines on the BMS I could be okay for days on anchor and no genny on

cheers

V.

 

[BartW]

Last year, I replaced all my 24V G4 bulbs with some which I bought from this supplier.

Which model did you order? I can’t find a model that would be ok in this housing:

Right now we are considering, replacing all brass spots by Chrome, (75pcs )
I found the original housings in Chrome, but I’m afraid there are no suitable Led lights with G4 fitting for this at 24V (and high CRI)
Or I have to choose other but similar housings that are made for LED lights (24V high CRI)
But I’m quite keen on this; I don’t want to sacrifice on the atmosphere from the traditional light bulbs,

sorry V for stealing your Thread

 

[Nick_H]

I would suggest you are not quite up to speed on the latest LED lamps.

Philips do a great range of warm white 2700k GU10 and GU5.3 lamps called MasterLed. There are now many excellent choices for cabin lighting and they are available in warm white as well as other colour temperatures. They will also obviously reduce your connected load.

I just bought a stack of the Phillips MasterLED for the house (to meet building regs), in 240V GU10 guise. I agree they're better than older LED, but they're still no match for halogen in my opinion. The light is still too flat, and has an unpleasant pinky tinge, so I changed 'em all back once the inspector had gone.

The other problem is that although they're dimmable, they dim by just going... err... dimmer. Halogen lights also go more yellow as they dim, which gives a nicer light, again in my opinion.

Unless the 24V versions are a lot better, I wouldn't consider them on the boat yet

 

[wakeup]

@wakeup, definitely not OT (not the point of this thread to block reasonable drifts anyway! )

Yes I need 24V, currently have snap on (if that's what you call them) halogens like the ones you find in cars and trucks since the 60ies. I obviously don't mind removing the bayonette fixing to a G4 accepting side pinned leds, especially since the 40mm dia disk types are perfect for my size of light fittings.

MM and others, on the link you posted, I can see that some have capacitors on the back (and that's the only thing I can see as the others are too tiny and the photo is front facing). Is a capacitor a reasonable part of a proper driver circuit? Can you confirm the consumption figures are low (unlike the simple stick a resistor at the back solutions on sale)?

Final Q, do these things overheat? I've seen some coming with largish alloy finned coolers, all these are plain, is that ok, or will the fitting start overheating? Mine are ss (by the looks of it!) so nothing to melt (only the ceiling lining...) I'm most likely going to be getting 100-150lumens leds (8-10 SMDs should be plenty as typically my fittings come in triplets)

cheers

V.

OK, I have to say, having looked at Mapis's Bedazzled links, that I wouldn't rush out and buy those if it were me. Anyone who advertises 'now EMI Free' should be avoided.

There are many issues that effect the behaviour of LEDs. First off they are very sensitive to voltage and current shifts. A small variation in voltage can mean a big variation in current and that can be fatal for an LED. So you need some sort of constant current set up to protect the LED and get the best out of it. That invariably means some sort of power circuit either in built to the LED module or external to the luminaire. Because a capacitor is present in the constant current circuitry doesn't make the driver a bad one. Though capacitors are notorious for their destructive failure modes. The usual indication of a poorly designed driver is that it will take a second before the LED lights and will keep the LED illuminated for a second after it has been switched off (obviously capacitors powering down) In the marine case it appears that such circuit would need to cope with 10v to 30v which is quite some range. The longevity of an LED is determined by many factors. In the marine environment, moisture will help accelerate the demise of the phosphors of cheaper LEDs. The MTBF of the components used in the drive circuity often don't come anywhere near to the claims of the life of the LED by the manufacturer and this is usually the weak link (capacitor being a good example) Next is how the heat is moved away from the LED. As Mapis rightly says, LEDs run cool relative to halogen lamps. However, running an LED just 10 or 20 degree above it stated spec can severely shorten the lifetime. LEDs cannot radiate the heat generated when running like a halogen can. The heat gets trapped in side the chip and the device becomes more inefficient. In order to remove the heat from the LED, there must be a thermal path to a suitable heat sink. In the plug in LED example posted by maps, no heat sink can be seen. This suggests that these LEDs are going to run hot and therefore not at their best. Even if they did have a small heat sink attached, it is likely that the fittings they would go into in a marine environment would be near air tight so no air flow to remove the heat properly. Also with most marine electronics the tendancy to encapsulate the pcbs. If you do this suing usual encapsulate then you trap the heat. So one could summize that you would be wasting your time and money if you bought the retrofit units.

Having said all of this, it is worth putting the reliability and efficiency into context. Most LED chips, if cooled, will last circa 50000 hours and still be giving 70% of their specced output. That is around 5.7 years of continuous use. So a poorly cooled led might last only 15-20k hours which is still a hell of a long time. Most of you swap your boats well before you need to swap your lamps so the real business case is how long do you want your batteries to last and would you rather have more battery capacity or lower consumption from your lighting. It will only stack up or not depending mainly on personal choice factors rather than any other case.

It is unlikely that manufacturers of such a relatively cheap product will be properly binning the LEDs based on forward voltage characteristics and colour temperature. They tend to buy the 'out of spec' bins (cheapest) and run them all through the same line so you will most likely see variation in colour temperature from one lamp to another.

The G4 vertical module presents the biggest challenge because it is a difficult form factor to build and LED that can shed it heat yet still throw the light in the right direction.

Ultimately, the only true way to obtain a great result is to redesign the luminaire from scratch with an LED system in mind. The business case for ripping out perfectly good luminaries to replace with more expensive LEDs luminaries doesn't stack up since G4 lamps are so cheap. However well worth considering if you are refitting or you are able to spec into the build of a new boat.

Probably the best looking and best thought out range of interior boats lights are made by Cantalupi. They have nailed the design integration of LEDs and their drivers. The specs show they can cope with 10v to 30v and they have also integrated a smart dimmer network as well.

See a link to their catalogue

http://www.improducts.co.uk/docs/file/Cantalupi Catalogue MasterLine Catalogue 2010web.pdf

http://www.improducts.co.uk/docs/file/Cantalupi%20Catalogue%20MasterLine%20Catalogue%202010web.pdf

Philips are about to release this g4 unit, good performance but only 12v.

 

[wakeup]

I just bought a stack of the Phillips MasterLED for the house (to meet building regs), in 240V GU10 guise. I agree they're better than older LED, but they're still no match for halogen in my opinion. The light is still too flat, and has an unpleasant pinky tinge, so I changed 'em all back once the inspector had gone.

The other problem is that although they're dimmable, they dim by just going... err... dimmer. Halogen lights also go more yellow as they dim, which gives a nicer light, again in my opinion.

Unless the 24V versions are a lot better, I wouldn't consider them on the boat yet

Nick,

I am surprised at your experience with the masterleds. What colour temperature were you using? I've seen dozens of pepsi challenges with these lamps and very convincing results.

You are right that halogen colour temperature gets warmer as they are dimmed. There are a number of industry developments underway to mimic this but the solution won't be cheap in the near future.

By the way the LEDs do not dim, they are pulsed quickly on and off and the dimmer you require them the longer the off pulse thus giving the effect of dimmer light. There are two methods to control this PWM and PAM (pulse width modulation and pulse amplitude modulation) PWM IP is completely owned by Philips for the LED market.

You can retrofit LED light engines rather than retro fit lamps. This will give a better result but will be an engineering challenge depending upon the fixture.

 

[jfm]

I just bought a stack of the Phillips MasterLED for the house (to meet building regs), in 240V GU10 guise. I agree they're better than older LED, but they're still no match for halogen in my opinion. The light is still too flat, and has an unpleasant pinky tinge, so I changed 'em all back once the inspector had gone.

The other problem is that although they're dimmable, they dim by just going... err... dimmer. Halogen lights also go more yellow as they dim, which gives a nicer light, again in my opinion.

Unless the 24V versions are a lot better, I wouldn't consider them on the boat yet

Hmm. I'm with you on this Nick. There is a little way to go before the market offers LEDs that are nice enough (though that's subjective, I accept) to compete with halogen. I have seen the stuff Wakeup has been involved with (he demo-ed it to me once!), and that is proper stuff where you buy the whole shebang (an "engine" in fact!) rather than a replacement bulb, and all the heat is carefully managed, and it is great gear and you'd like it, but it is also pretty expensive gear. I wouldn't dream of using on my boat the bedazzled type stuff that Mapis linked to - chinese junk built down to a price

The MasterLED claim is >80% CRI, which I guess means 80.1%. I doubt you will be happy with less than 90-95 to be honest, if you dislike the "flat" look

 

[BartW]

There is a little way to go before the market offers LEDs that are nice enough (though that's subjective, I accept) to compete with halogen.

exactly,

The MasterLED claim is >80% CRI, which I guess means 80.1%. I doubt you will be happy with less than 90-95 to be honest, if you dislike the "flat" look

looking at the CRI demo picture in the Cantalupi brochure page 12, then I have to agree that a CRI <95 isn't good enough for main interior lights.
nevertheless some nice stuff in that brochure !

 

[MapisM]

Which model did you order? I can’t find a model that would be ok in this housing:...

I used the 44mm disk shaped bulbs, because my lights are much wider than yours. But I don't have any pics.
Maybe, and I stress maybe, those called "tower type" on that website could fit your housings.
You could try, as I did, just a couple of them: aside from checking if they fit, you can use them in parallel to the old bulbs and see if if you like them, before buying as many as you need.
In the worst case, you'll have thrown away a few euros...

 

[MapisM]

OK, I have to say, having looked at Mapis's Bedazzled links, that I wouldn't rush out and buy those if it were me. Anyone who advertises 'now EMI Free' should be avoided.

LOL, would you prefer some "EMI intensive" components?
Jokes aside, I see what you mean. Btw, that statement wasn't there yet when I bought my bulbs, IIRC.
Anyway, I neither asked you or anyone else to rush out and buy anything, nor I have any connection with that supplier.
I tried them, found that they did what they said on the tin, and that their light was good enough for me.
Life's too short to wait for nuclear fission led bulbs imho, but each to their own!

PS: Interesting summary anyway, thanks for enlightening us.

 

[BartW]

You could try, as I did, just a couple of them: aside from checking if they fit, you can use them in parallel to the old bulbs and see if if you like

Yes I will try some models.
in the machine room and utility room, E27 fittings, I don't care about the light quality.
thanks for the link.

 

[wakeup]

I used the 44mm disk shaped bulbs, because my lights are much wider than yours. But I don't have any pics.
Maybe, and I stress maybe, those called "tower type" on that website could fit your housings.
You could try, as I did, just a couple of them: aside from checking if they fit, you can use them in parallel to the old bulbs and see if if you like them, before buying as many as you need.
In the worst case, you'll have thrown away a few euros...

The way the euro is going then probably no great shakes to buy two for every lamp holder

 

[wakeup]

LOL, would you prefer some "EMI intensive" components?
Jokes aside, I see what you mean. Btw, that statement wasn't there yet when I bought my bulbs, IIRC.
Anyway, I neither asked you or anyone else to rush out and buy anything, nor I have any connection with that supplier.
I tried them, found that they did what they said on the tin, and that their light was good enough for me.
Life's too short to wait for nuclear fission led bulbs imho, but each to their own!

PS: Interesting summary anyway, thanks for enlightening us.

I was eluding to the fact that they probably haven't been tested to various ce and enc standards and therefore anything could happen once plugged in including interference with your nav and comma gear!

 

[vas]

wakeup, thanks for the analysis, some good points made, and I think we must all be v.careful not only on EMI and driver circuit, but heat dissipation.

I wonder if there is/will be a 24V 8-12smd assembly WITH a heatsink at the back that could retrofit to our light fittings...
OTOH, going for low consumption, I could easily change with something similar to MM all the bathroom and cabin lights, maybe leave halogens in the salon and helm/galley. I've only got 20 of them to replace so in a much better state than Bart

Regarding the Philips masterled series, in my home office room I now have 3 of them 7W 2.7K Kelvin dimmable ones and although the light is not perfect, it's good for working and it's much cooler (tempwise as during the summer there was a point that the small low height room would heat up from the halogens). Dimming also doesn't work extremely well, as they sort of die somewhere south of 50%...

Anyway, if you don't mind me reporting some more progress, I spend couple of mornings disassembling and removing more **** and today got my Nikon with me and took some better pics.

Halfway through removing the partition between main cabin and crew cabin (only 12mm ply btw)

and then all of it removed. Well, not quite all, there's lots of rusted screws/nails securing this plywood panel to the structural members of the hull and I decided to cut it this way and later on cut the remains in small pieces and lever out the nails, or cut the heads off the screws with my dremmel...

Removing the lining of the crew cabin, I realised it was double lined, with original panels (quite rotten), 4mm hardboard and an extra 8mm strong good quality ply on top. Underneath all that, there is a fair amount of rot on a couple of the 20x80mm beams supporting the teak deck on the bow and there's rain water seeping in from a few spots, running down the plywood which is now wet and soft on a few spots mainly on the port side way above the waterline and above the top hard chine. Next series of photos show the condition of the hull plywood on the port side:

and a couple on the condition on the stbrd side:

Working from the top, I removed the white stripped lining on the port side and found a fair amount of damp but not soft or rotten plywood underneath. Most of the water seems to be coming in from the bolt securing the curved alloy ending of the slanted sundeck (if that's the right way to describe it...)
Digging around trying to find sound wood I ended up with a 30x60mm hole. Closed it temporarily and will let it dry whilst I'm removing the ceiling lining of the main cabin and the insulation that's there.

Will have to remove all these thin wooden strips on the sundeck (unfortunately they are supported on dowels, so the deck will be full of holes after this operation...) and I'm thinking if I should be replacing the whole plywood on the sundeck, although it looks like most of it is sound and only the last 10-15cm and at the corners it's gone soft.

Will also have to assess if the port side hull plywood that's gone soft has to be replaced and how.

Finally have to investigate the layup of material on the bow and sides as on top of the original teak deck they have bolted marine plywood and put this white strippy thing that I'm about to remove. I wouldn't mind laying my new teak veneer (5-6mm thick) on top of this plywood, BUT the idiots have bolted it down with non ss bolts (at least some of them, could be galvanised woodscrews). Have to remove a few bolts and investigate further. Else I'll have to resort to the original plan which was to remove the lot and lay new plywood and the teak veneer on top of it.

So w/e is exploration time and lots of decisions to be made.

Ah, took a photo of my anchor as well, could someone be kind enough to tell me what it is (am I right in thinking its a Bruce clone?)
Says HKQ 15Kg, Made in China:

FWIW, half the crafts in the area use similar designs and no, I'm not going to post on scuttlebutt or liveaboard asking if it's a good anchor

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Good going V. Is the rot and decay about what you expected, or have you uncovered some Oh Sh!t moments?