Me Too on Boats

[ylop]

Dutch - the ONLY person mentioning "all men are rapists" is you.

 

[Dutch01527]

Dutch - the ONLY person mentioning "all men are rapists" is you.

It is a common phrase to capture a sentiment and approach - presumption that an accusation is always true.

I think that I will withdraw from the debate at this point.

 

[ylop]

It is a common phrase to capture a sentiment and approach - presumption that an accusation is always true.

Its not a common phrase meaning what you think it means at all. You can start with the presumption that the victim is telling the truth without believing all men are rapists either literally or figuratively. Even if some people use it that way (and I'd politely suggest its the sort of misquotation likely thrown around on twitter by men trying to justify their own prejudices rather than in any credible world) there's absolutely no need for you to perpetuate such a conspiracy by chucking it into conversations where nobody suggested such a thing. If you honestly believe there is a mainstream thinking that "all men are rapists" or that any professional (police, judicial, medical, psychological) would credibly suggest that as a way to make women feel believed then I'd respectfully suggest that you have been hanging around in an echo chamber with the sort of men who are more interested in proving some women wrong than fixing things for the majority of women.

I think that I will withdraw from the debate at this point.

I suspect the women of YBW just collectively rolled their eyes at this.

 

[johnalison]

Its not a common phrase meaning what you think it means at all. You can start with the presumption that the victim is telling the truth without believing all men are rapists either literally or figuratively. Even if some people use it that way (and I'd politely suggest its the sort of misquotation likely thrown around on twitter by men trying to justify their own prejudices rather than in any credible world) there's absolutely no need for you to perpetuate such a conspiracy by chucking it into conversations where nobody suggested such a thing. If you honestly believe there is a mainstream thinking that "all men are rapists" or that any professional (police, judicial, medical, psychological) would credibly suggest that as a way to make women feel believed then I'd respectfully suggest that you have been hanging around in an echo chamber with the sort of men who are more interested in proving some women wrong than fixing things for the majority of women.

I suspect the women of YBW just collectively rolled their eyes at this.

It certainly isn't a common phrase, but it has occasionally been used as a paraphrase of the stance of radical feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. I doubt if Dworkin herself used the phrase, or even agreed with it, but extreme movements tend to be more extreme in the US and I would doubt if there weren't some who believed it. I think that Dutch is overstating it in suggesting that it is common, but it does represent an extreme view. I wasn't aware that it had been used to infer that all rape accusations are true, which doesn't make sense from any point of view, but only that all male sexual activity is part of an aggressive masculinity aimed at the maintenance of a patriarchal system, while most of us would think it something of an over-statement.

 

[Minerva]

The whole things makes me terribly uncomfortable and I don’t know what the answer is tbh. It’s also very hard to talk about a delicate and highly emotionally charged topic online.

The successful conviction rates for rape are vanishingly low - circa 5% irc - before you put the offshore element and resulting legal jurisdiction complications into the mix.

I can quite believe there will be predatory men who own boat, just as there are in all walks of life and should be held accountable for their crimes whenever encountered. Furthermore the setting of being trapped on a boat in the middle of an atoll or desert island with a rapist / violent abuser is the thing of nightmares.

However, it seems the case in question and the newspaper article linked has stemmed from a Facebook group and an alleged assault, which sounds pretty horrific. The alleged attacker (not going to name them for obvious reasons) is being widely named and shamed across multiple groups on the back of this allegation and their alleged crimes will be visible to their friends, family and any future employer. A legacy that will inevitably haunt them and affect their lives, future relationships and employability for years to come. All this on the back of one side of the story and certainly no legal investigation to assess its veracity.

Furthermore the Facebook group seems to have been set up as a person who has set up a company and holds a “blacklist” of captains who’ve had allegations levied against them. You can pay a few dollars for each name you want to check if they’re on this “blacklist”. This black list would appear to be independent and not linked to any governmental sexual predator list.

I don’t know what the answer is and a solution should be sought, but I don’t think a Facebook group based company with what appears to be lynch mob tendencies is it.

This probably would be better managed by the relevant authorities in much the way an enhanced disclosure check in the uk is obtained if you want to work with vulnerable people / children.

 

[mjcoon]

My understanding is that, despite common parlance, there isn't a "register" in the sense of a list of names - it's the other way round, certain names will have a "mark" against them. I can't remember why it's that way round, probably to prevent vigilante searches of the database.

As someone steeped in IT for decades, the distinction you are making is just about access. Checking a name requires a register to consult, but just for a single ID using a unique key such as DoB plus passport number or NI number or similar. And no ability to scan the list which, as you say, could be mis-used.

 

[Moderator]

Thread reviewed.

Please keep to general boating relevance, rather than current affairs/societal comment.

 

[Mister E]

If I remember properly the saying is.
Treat all men as potential rapists.
If I as a man were looking for crew I would keep this in mind.
This would help me decide about who to allow on the boat both male and female.

I take the view that I have a duty of care to ensure that the boat is run safely for all on board.
This also has to take into account people feeling uncomfortable or threatened.

 

[johnalison]

The whole things makes me terribly uncomfortable and I don’t know what the answer is tbh. It’s also very hard to talk about a delicate and highly emotionally charged topic online.

The successful conviction rates for rape are vanishingly low - circa 5% irc - before you put the offshore element and resulting legal jurisdiction complications into the mix.

I can quite believe there will be predatory men who own boat, just as there are in all walks of life and should be held accountable for their crimes whenever encountered. Furthermore the setting of being trapped on a boat in the middle of an atoll or desert island with a rapist / violent abuser is the thing of nightmares.

However, it seems the case in question and the newspaper article linked has stemmed from a Facebook group and an alleged assault, which sounds pretty horrific. The alleged attacker (not going to name them for obvious reasons) is being widely named and shamed across multiple groups on the back of this allegation and their alleged crimes will be visible to their friends, family and any future employer. A legacy that will inevitably haunt them and affect their lives, future relationships and employability for years to come. All this on the back of one side of the story and certainly no legal investigation to assess its veracity.

Furthermore the Facebook group seems to have been set up as a person who has set up a company and holds a “blacklist” of captains who’ve had allegations levied against them. You can pay a few dollars for each name you want to check if they’re on this “blacklist”. This black list would appear to be independent and not linked to any governmental sexual predator list.

I don’t know what the answer is and a solution should be sought, but I don’t think a Facebook group based company with what appears to be lynch mob tendencies is it.

This probably would be better managed by the relevant authorities in much the way an enhanced disclosure check in the uk is obtained if you want to work with vulnerable people / children.

I agree in that I don’t know what the answer is, both to the matter of rape and violence done in private. By their nature, witnesses are almost never available and there will only occasionally be forensic evidence. We don’t have to go to the lengths of some Islamic courts, where several witnesses are needed for conviction, and examination in court is the answer we have. Trial by Facebook is likely to give the worst of both worlds.

 

[steve yates]

Some men are like that but in many cases I suspect its a deal. A pal of mine had his boat in the Canaries. I went out to it once and whilst I was there he collected a homeless Spanish girl off the marina and gave her a berth for the night on the basis of sex. He treated her like garbage and worst of all he had his 18 year old son on board. The man himself was still married.

In other respects he is a nice guy. But if even half of the tales that I hear from male sailing pals about their own escapades are correct, there is an awful lot of this sort of thing that goes on.

I have read and reread this 4 times now, and I still find it difficult to believe what I am reading. Why didnt you intervene?

 

[Uricanejack]

The individual and the girl. An unpleasant story. No idea what Spanish law is regarding consent.
Presumably despite being conduct unbecoming of a gentleman. There is nothing in the post to suggest it was anything other than an arrangement between two consenting adults, or suggesting either of them was unhappy about it.
I would be uncomfortable enough to avoid his company in future.
The presence of the son would make me uncomfortable enough to say something.
I do wonder how it is relevant to the points raised by original post.

The possibility of inappropriate behaviour being encountered by women when crewing on yachts.
Being an older guy. Who sail mostly with other older guys or with family.
It is not something I have any first hand knowledge of.
I do know two women who related stories where they were not just uncomfortable but actually frightened by the situation they found themselves in while crewing. Fortunately both stories did not get any worse. Than very uncomfortable situations.
How often does it happen, again I have no idea.

In my regular life, The presence of women in the work place, and partaking in some of the activities I enjoy for pleasure.
has gone from rare and unusual to relatively normal.
The world has certainly changed.

Which brings me back to a point, brought to my mind, by this particular thread drift.

It’s not easy to speak up. Or perhaps it’s easier said than done.
There are many reasons why most people don’t speak up.
I like to think I would speak up. The truth is, there are times I regret not having spoke up.
life age, past, experience, despite it being difficult, I have intervened or spoken up when I have seen something I believed inappropriate. It was not easy.

I have found in most circumstances, speaking up turned out to be the best. The persons who’s conduct was not appropriate. More often than not, did not realize it their conduct was out of order. Until somebody said something. Once something was said an apology was given and the conduct changed.
On occasions, it required more.

My observation. People who are intentionally inappropriate and or predatory in thier behaviour. Select as their victims, those they perceive will not report. And only engage in inappropriate conduct in front of people they perceive will not say anything or report it.

How this relates to crewing. I might be naive. I believe most people are decent, some are idiots and a very small minority are unpleasant.
By making your position clear and asking about their position and particularly what they are expecting.
Its most likely this can be avoided.

If you see or hear something inappropriate, speak up, it’s not easy. It is preferable to regretting inaction.

I have known quite a few women who have worked in the maritime industry. Almost all of them have relayed some kind of story. Hopefully as the world changes younger women will find life in the industry easier