Me Too on Boats

[dgadee]

Stranded at sea: amateur female sailors speak of sexual abuse by captains they met online

 

[Stemar]

Disgusted, but not surprised. If x% of men on land are predators, why would it be any different at sea? I'm sure x is a much smaller number than some of the more rabid feminists would have us believe, but it isn't zero, and being confined on a boat makes it that much harder to escape.

Would sites like Crewseekers have access to to the sexual offenders register? If not, that would be a start, as would a mechanism for reporting inappropriate behaviour, which could also include things like coming on watch drunk.

 

[johnalison]

My view is that if you choose someone at random, you are probably safe (in any field, not just the present one) but if you allow them to choose you you should look out. I’m afraid that a single woman putting herself in the position of being alone in a boat is taking a risk, as is a man to a lesser extent. The risk might even be worse than the expected average because predatorial men might be drawn to such an activity as sailing. I have no idea what the answer should be, other than keel-hauling offenders, but it seems to me, as a mere man, that the only safe option is to spend time with the prospective person in a safe environment, such as with a companion, and come to a judgement, but I can see that this isn't always practicable. It would be nice to think that modern media would make it harder to persist in such behaviour.

 

[KevinV]

Would sites like Crewseekers have access to to the sexual offenders register? If not, that would be a start, as would a mechanism for reporting inappropriate behaviour, which could also include things like coming on watch drunk.

My understanding is that, despite common parlance, there isn't a "register" in the sense of a list of names - it's the other way round, certain names will have a "mark" against them. I can't remember why it's that way round, probably to prevent vigilante searches of the database.

Anyway, in this case, with so many nationalities, in so many places, under so many jurisdictions I can't see it being very helpful. You could make it possible to upload a DBS check, so UK skippers could at least show that they've never been caught, making them appear a better prospect - but that's a lot of admin and bigger GDPR headaches for Crewseekers and the like.

Johnalison's point of doing due diligence on the person before embarking on their boat is well made. This should include getting them tipsy and seeing what happens - we used to do this quite on purpose with new staff at a holiday company I worked for many years ago, before sending them out to their posts. I also did it before crewing in the Caribbean - if someone is unpleasant after a few drinks, they're unpleasant but hiding it when sober.

 

[Bouba]

There was an old thread where someone posted photos from a crew search app (can’t recall which) but the general opinion of the forum is that the photos and profiles were definitely sexually orientated. Even in the Guardian article the woman complained that the captain didn’t look like his photo....why does this matter? You either are offering experience, muscle or both...and the captain is in need of a crew person who is either experienced or can be trained. These date app like profiles and photos start everything off on the wrong foot
Anyhow I hope I haven’t offended anyone or given the impression that anyone is asking for it

 

[Stemar]

the woman complained that the captain didn’t look like his photo....why does this matter?

It matters because the guy has lied. It may just be vanity, but if it doesn't set a great big red flag waving for a woman who's thinking of spending a good bit of time alone with him, she probably shouldn't be allowed out on her own.

 

[fredrussell]

For me, it’s Rocna, but as long as it’s a ‘new generation’ type you should be alright.

 

[Dutch01527]

I suspect that long term cruusing attracts some people who want to escape from their previous life. Some for a spirit of adventure, a love of travel or nature and other great reasons. Others because they are forced to and the lack of accountability that living on a boat offers is attractive for dark reasons.

It is sad but true that a woman alone going on a small boat for a month, with a man she has never met, is taking a massive risk especially if the skipper had advertised for female crew as often happens. That does not excuse despicable behavior in anyway.

Whilst not for one moment denying that a horrific asaults happen, elements of the news article seem questionable and maybe physically impossible/highly improbable if reported accurately. False accusations are a real and common thing, usually resulting from mental health issues. I would not agree to a unknown women alone onto my boat especially overnight for that reason.

What a sad world we live in at times.

 

[Birdseye]

Some men are like that but in many cases I suspect its a deal. A pal of mine had his boat in the Canaries. I went out to it once and whilst I was there he collected a homeless Spanish girl off the marina and gave her a berth for the night on the basis of sex. He treated her like garbage and worst of all he had his 18 year old son on board. The man himself was still married.

In other respects he is a nice guy. But if even half of the tales that I hear from male sailing pals about their own escapades are correct, there is an awful lot of this sort of thing that goes on.

 

[ylop]

Disgusted, but not surprised. If x% of men on land are predators, why would it be any different at sea? I'm sure x is a much smaller number than some of the more rabid feminists would have us believe, but it isn't zero, and being confined on a boat makes it that much harder to escape.

describing women who are concerned about their safety as "rabid feminists" seems like a great way to indicate to women that you are on their side. Of course if X% of the population are predators you'd expect X% of sailors to be too. if its 10x that on these apps/services then you've got a problem. I've no idea what the denominator is versus the number of complaints but I'd be rather surprised if an essentially anonymous way of finding crew didn't appeal more to those who are a bit dodgy!

Would sites like Crewseekers have access to to the sexual offenders register? If not, that would be a start, as would a mechanism for reporting inappropriate behaviour, which could also include things like coming on watch drunk.

Its not something the public or employers etc can consult. Whilst the police can search for people on it, the real point of it is that if you are on it you have obligations to tell the police where you are (even on holiday etc). However, every country is different and managing that internationally would be a nightmare even if you could search them; even then it would only list those with a conviction.

I'd expect the platform providers to have some sort of ebay/uber style "rate my captain" score which should help creepy, sleezy, simply dangerous, drunk or incompetent ones be highlighted and unknown entities be highlighted. Presumably, it would do the same for the crew. From the article it sounds like they have that but if you are too ranty (like you might be after being assaulted) the site owners don't publish the reviews!

My view is that if you choose someone at random, you are probably safe (in any field, not just the present one) but if you allow them to choose you you should look out. I’m afraid that a single woman putting herself in the position of being alone in a boat is taking a risk, as is a man to a lesser extent.

whilst I hate anything that might be misconstrued as victim blaming, I find the idea of people advertising for crew (or crewing opportunities) online to total strangers rather odd. In my mind it's comparable to hitch hiking. Even as a man who can sail I'd find the idea of getting on a complete strangers boat and sailing off with them for several days unsettling, nothing to do with sexual assault of physical violence, but are they competent sailors, might the boat have drugs on board and I find myself banged up for smuggling etc.

Whilst not for one moment denying that a horrific asaults happen, elements of the news article seem questionable and maybe physically impossible/highly improbable if reported accurately. False accusations are a real and common thing, usually resulting from mental health issues. I would not agree to a unknown women alone onto my boat especially overnight for that reason.

Wow, we've moved beyond, really women should be more careful to men should be more careful as there's some crazy women who make shit up. Of course, there ARE a very small number of false accusations, but one of the biggest problems with sexual offence reporting is women not being believed or people trying to pick apart their stories to find the impossible inaccuracies because how they remember or someone described a traumatic event is not how the reader would have behaved. That attitude is part of the problem whether you are on land or at sea.

You are correct though that "captains" expose themselves to risk (I'd say the risk of being falsely accused of sexual assault is tiny compared to the other things some random stranger with no proven track record of sailing could present).

Some men are like that but in many cases I suspect its a deal. A pal of mine had his boat in the Canaries. I went out to it once and whilst I was there he collected a homeless Spanish girl off the marina and gave her a berth for the night on the basis of sex. He treated her like garbage and worst of all he had his 18 year old son on board. The man himself was still married.

In other respects he is a nice guy. But if even half of the tales that I hear from male sailing pals about their own escapades are correct, there is an awful lot of this sort of thing that goes on.

So to be clear, you sat back whilst he exploited a vulnerable young girl who was old enough to be his daughter? And you let that happen, and still call him a pal and say, "he is a nice guy". FFS - this is why the creepy bastards get away with this shit. The rest of us just say, "oh he's a bit pervy". No the worst of all was not that his son was on board (although he's probably now learned it is acceptable behaviour). The worst of all is that a young homeless woman was sexually exploited and YOU did nothing to stop it.

 

[penfold]

In terms of the crew-finding/matching type sites there's little to be done as they will not be interested unless compelled by law or incentivised by money; perhaps women should pretend to be men/use gender neutral pseudonyms while in the application stages, anecdote suggests men are less guarded when communicating with other men(or think they are) about their intentions and this could provide an early warning of predatory tendencies. There is still harassment and misogyny in professional seafaring so that it happens in the amateur/leisure sector is no surprise. I'm a bit nonplussed about the photo thing; so what if he uses an old photo(assuming it is actually him and not a pin-up or hollywood star with a sailor's hat on), vanity is not a crime although perhaps one might be suspicious of their veracity about other things vis experience, intentions etc.

 

[KevinV]

So to be clear, you sat back whilst he exploited a vulnerable young girl who was old enough to be his daughter? And you let that happen, and still call him a pal and say, "he is a nice guy". FFS - this is why the creepy bastards get away with this shit. The rest of us just say, "oh he's a bit pervy". No the worst of all was not that his son was on board (although he's probably now learned it is acceptable behaviour). The worst of all is that a young homeless woman was sexually exploited and YOU did nothing to stop it.

Thank you for this, I was shocked at this tale of "a nice guy", to the extent that I couldn't put it into words. Dispicable behaviour.

 

[Stemar]

describing women who are concerned about their safety as "rabid feminists" seems like a great way to indicate to women that you are on their side.

I'm totally on the side of women as a group. They should be able to go about their lives safe from any sort of discrimination or threat of harm from dangerous predators whether they be human or other.

The ones I was referring to as rabid feminists are the "All men are rapists" nutters, who do their cause no good at all, because it provides an excuse for sexist men not to take women's rights seriously.

 

[Bouba]

This is why this subject is too hot to discuss cooly…I even finished my first post with an apology and get out of jail card…personally I won’t be contributing further

 

[ylop]

I'm totally on the side of women as a group. They should be able to go about their lives safe from any sort of discrimination or threat of harm from dangerous predators whether they be human or other.

The ones I was referring to as rabid feminists are the "All men are rapists" nutters, who do their cause no good at all, because it provides an excuse for sexist men not to take women's rights seriously.

But perhaps you'd be more convincing about the first paragraph if you just didn't feel compelled to add the second.

 

[Dutch01527]

“Wow, we've moved beyond, really women should be more careful to men should be more careful as there's some crazy women who make shit up. Of course, there ARE a very small number of false accusations, but one of the biggest problems with sexual offence reporting is women not being believed or people trying to pick apart their stories to find the impossible inaccuracies because how they remember or someone described a traumatic event is not how the reader would have behaved. That attitude is part of the problem whether you are on land or at sea.”

Have you ever experienced a family member being accused of sexual assault by a women when it eventually emerged that the woman had made about 10 previous allegations of similar. All of which had been dismissed without prosecution or conviction? Resulted in loss of job, marriage break down and severe deppresion. I have. The woman in question was sectioned under the mental health act shortly afterwards but not before she had destroyed another life.

Read the story if reported correctly. Woman complain they the man did not look like his younger and more attractive photo, was raped whilst swimming pushed against the side of the boat (how is that possible it would be extremely difficult even with a fully consenting partner), continued to sleep with the man, did not walk away or report the assault, made the assault claim much later whist under therapy. In the case of my family member the accusation was after therapy with a therapist with extreme and published “all men are rapists” views.

I regard myself as a old fashioned gentleman. I hate sexual or physical abuse of a woman. I have put myself at physical risk in the past to intervene to protect a woman who was being assaulted. However, I do believe that false allegations are more prevalent than a “very small number”. Just because a woman says something does not mean that it is the truth and should be believed without question. That does not mean that any such allegation should not be taken extremely seriously and rigorously investigated.

 

[Graham376]

Came across a murderer about 30 years ago. Had our first boat out of the water to re-seal the keels somewhere near Itchen bridge and regularly chatted to a middle aged liveaboard guy (Denzel) who made a living partly by selling flares at boat jumbles and said to look him up at Spring Northern Boat Jumble.

When visiting the jumble, asked around for him and told to see the organiser, who asked if I was police. When I filled him in with details, was told Denzel had picked up some girl who wanted to sail, saying he had a boat delivery to do from somewhere in Europe. On passage back, she became very worried about her safety and jumped ship at first opportunity. Arriving home, she contacted police and it turned out he had stolen the boat and was also wanted for the murder of an (IIRC Australian) back packer.

 

[ylop]

Dutch - no I’ve not because the number of times your particular scenario happens are very small compared to the number of times woman are assaulted.

your assumption that rape in the water is not really possible, that haveing sex with someone who is not consenting is physically much harder than with one who is, and that women who have been raped never then cooperate with their pursuer to have “consentual” sex at a later date tell me you don’t understand rape at all. Very often the victim freezes or panics and is unable to escape or resist or believes less harm will come from cooperation. Often mind games are played where the victim comes to believe that they are at fault and they can solve it by agreeing next time. And delays in reporting offences come about for many reasons including people like you not taking their allegations seriously (you can suggest you are but you are arguing that a journalists description of their story is so obviously impossible that the gist of the story may be made up). Let the courts test the evidence rather than transferring your personal experiences across to an unrelated case.
I’d suggest you go back and read the article again:
1. The person claiming to have been raped in the water was “in the middle of the ocean” so could hardly get walk away as you suggest; their description of events afterwards is not that surprising to me - you’ll find cases like that on land in courts up and down the country. Your perception of rape and how people respond to it is outdated. Perhaps jaded by one family members adverse experience. The fear of being accused of being a liar is what keeps women quiet.
2. The person complaining about the fake picture (a) never says it was less attractive (b) says it was “obviously fake” - I read that as not the same person rather than “obviously 10 yrs out of date”. (c) is not the same person who was raped in the sea. So you think they are both fabricating their stories.
3. I don’t quite follow if there’s one more “victim” or three more victims (of a Swiss attacker). Are they all making it up too?

.I regard myself as a old fashioned gentleman. I hate sexual or physical abuse of a woman. I have put myself at physical risk in the past to intervene to protect a woman who was being assaulted.

fwiw I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the same things said by the alleged attackers in each of the above cases. I’m not doubting you are old fashioned though.

 

[01_Anna]

Thank you for this, I was shocked at this tale of "a nice guy", to the extent that I couldn't put it into words. Dispicable behaviour.
Thank you for this comment.
A woman's voice here:
I was repeatedly harassed in a " nice club" in the UK, where I kept my boat. I never searched for (strange) male company or crew, not that it to seem to stop the harrasment. I did complain.... much good did it do me.

 

[Dutch01527]

I am aware that my experience and instincts are not aligned to the current thinking on this subject, especially the thinking of professionals who are trained to a narrative and are following policy. I accept that my very real personal experiences with a family member might have influenced my views. Every well-meaning individual wants women to be protected and there to be justice in this area.

Maybe, just maybe, the pendulum has swung too far from the “she asked for it”madness of our recent past to the “ all men are rapists” narative? Major change was undoubtedly needed but as is the case with many facets of our life the initial change might overcomponsate for the sins of the past.