Marina electricity charges

[grumpy_o_g]

As per ribdriver the service is to cover their costs, not for them to make a profit. As their costs do not have a direct correlation to your consumption it cannot exactly cover their costs unless you happen to use exactly the right amount of electricity. That would be okay if they were always under-recovering but it doesn't sound like it so maybe try Trading Standards or the RYA if you're a member? The other thing is that your contract should refer to a schedule of prices somewhere (normally a published price list). If it doesn't have that service charge on it you are not liable for it. The only thing I would be careful of is that we are in the world of boats so do make sure there's no chance of a lien on your vessel, even if it isn't from valid cause.

 

[steveeasy]

They are not allowed to make a profit on it, units or service charge. Therefore to apply a 'per unit' service charge COULD be making a profit if you are a heavy user. If you use say 2000 units and a.n.other only uses 100, the service costs are actually the same - it costs the marina no more to 'facilitate' the service to you than to the a.n.other. It's just the unit or consumption costs that vary. (Assuming like for like single 16A connection - bit different for say a 16A vs three phase super yacht supply!)
Therefore Some marinas apply a per unit service charge but with a cap on it of say £100 per annum, or a flat rate.

Out of interest, who specifically says they are not allowed to make a profit from a service charge ?. How does a customer end up providing the meter though. Really.

Steveeasy

 

[mainsail1]

Out of interest, who specifically says they are not allowed to make a profit from a service charge ?. How does a customer end up providing the meter though. Really.

Steveeasy

Ofgen have issued a document which I guess is based on legislation.

A number of marinas allow you to provide your own meter but on this occasion they insisted, and sold me the meter and cable.

 

[steveeasy]

Ofgen have issued a document which I guess is based on legislation.

A number of marinas allow you to provide your own meter but on this occasion they insisted, and sold me the meter and cable.

well it sounds utter madness that you have to buy a meter. With a flat service charge you know where you are. clearly they have this added rate on each unit to make money.

Steveeasy

 

[PeterWright]

A reasonable charge for the energy supplied is fairly easy to arrive at and is dependent on the skill of the marina operator in negotiating his supply contract. A business does not enjoy the extensive consumer protection from sharp practice by suppliers which a domestic consumer does and this market can be a minefield. A reasonable service charge is a much more difficult thing to assess. Installation cost for a 16A supply to each berth (forget the super yacht 3 phase supplies) With modern standards of protection and phase segregation is unlikely to leave an operator with any change from £5000 per berth these days, so £2.5 million for a 500 berth marina. No sensible service charge will service that (interest, opportunity cost, repayment) over 20 years, even if every berth holder takes a supply for the whole year. So, to a certain extent, it must be viewed as part of the capital cost of the harbour.

However, if all the costs of the electrical installation are recovered through berthing fees, those clients who don't take electricity would feel hard done by, so most harbours levy a service charge which they feel is reasonable, recognising that they will not cover their installation costs. Of course, as others have noted, these systems are not maintenance free. Apart from reading meters and running around after clients whose supply trips (usually due to an earth fault on board or trying to run a kettle and a fan heater off a 16A supply) when dredging or pontoon replacement are required, the cabling must be disconnected then reconnected and tested.

I personally do not favour the service charge per unit supplied, as it leads to the ridiculous outcome cited here for a heavy consumer. The quarterly charges cited here seem to me quite reasonable, but will never court the costs involved in providing the service.

 

[longjohnsilver]

A reasonable charge for the energy supplied is fairly easy to arrive at and is dependent on the skill of the marina operator in negotiating his supply contract. A business does not enjoy the extensive consumer protection from sharp practice by suppliers which a domestic consumer does and this market can be a minefield. A reasonable service charge is a much more difficult thing to assess. Installation cost for a 16A supply to each berth (forget the super yacht 3 phase supplies) With modern standards of protection and phase segregation is unlikely to leave an operator with any change from £5000 per berth these days, so £2.5 million for a 500 berth marina. No sensible service charge will service that (interest, opportunity cost, repayment) over 20 years, even if every berth holder takes a supply for the whole year. So, to a certain extent, it must be viewed as part of the capital cost of the harbour.

However, if all the costs of the electrical installation are recovered through berthing fees, those clients who don't take electricity would feel hard done by, so most harbours levy a service charge which they feel is reasonable, recognising that they will not cover their installation costs. Of course, as others have noted, these systems are not maintenance free. Apart from reading meters and running around after clients whose supply trips (usually due to an earth fault on board or trying to run a kettle and a fan heater off a 16A supply) when dredging or pontoon replacement are required, the cabling must be disconnected then reconnected and tested.

I personally do not favour the service charge per unit supplied, as it leads to the ridiculous outcome cited here for a heavy consumer. The quarterly charges cited here seem to me quite reasonable, but will never court the costs involved in providing the service.

£5000 buys you a heck of a lot of cable and consumer units. Can you be a little more specific as to how you arrived at this figure?

 

[SteveA]

Having just been involved in installing pedestals with smart meters at my local club the cost worked out at £1150 per pedestal - and that included laying the underground cables so £5k is steep!
The trouble we now have is, because no one has been checking, our supplier is charging 18.3p/kWh + vat and the vat for business users is 20%. I can feel a price comparison site visit coming on.

 

[PeterWright]

Not a calculation, but an estimate based on 40 years as a chartered electrical engineer. Say a 500 berth marina of 10 pontoons so 50 berths per pontoon. Max theoretical current 800 A per pontoon so design for 400 A that's a meaty cable to each pontoon. Each pontoon will be at least 100m long and distance between pontoons at least 40m, so your in for a few km of cable and at minimum 599m of undergrounding, either multiple cables or even bigger cable plus jointing (this isn't choc strip stuff). Protection for each pontoon circuit, protection for each socket, the pedestals themselves, metering system. Probably site supply won't handle this on top of load for shoreside facilities, so extra transformer (0.5 -1 MVA) from higher voltage supply plus protection and switchgear.

You do the maths.

 

[GrahamM376]

Not a calculation, but an estimate based on 40 years as a chartered electrical engineer. Say a 500 berth marina of 10 pontoons so 50 berths per pontoon. Max theoretical current 800 A per pontoon so design for 400 A that's a meaty cable to each pontoon. Each pontoon will be at least 100m long and distance between pontoons at least 40m, so your in for a few km of cable and at minimum 599m of undergrounding, either multiple cables or even bigger cable plus jointing (this isn't choc strip stuff). Protection for each pontoon circuit, protection for each socket, the pedestals themselves, metering system. Probably site supply won't handle this on top of load for shoreside facilities, so extra transformer (0.5 -1 MVA) from higher voltage supply plus protection and switchgear.
You do the maths.

Peter, I don't doubt your costs but these are "capital" costs in most cases when building a marina, just the same as costs for buildings, walkways, pontoons etc. The annual ongoing costs of maintenance & replacement is minor in comparison to the capital cost which should be recovered + profit margin in the general charges over a period of years. It would appear that those who don't use any electricity have no service charge although their facility still has to be inspected and serviced, is that reasonable? Certainly in the past when I had flats and bed sitters, there was a cap on daily meter charge but I would guess that a marina is not considered a private residence so outside normal house/apartment regs. Graham.

 

[macd]

I would guess that a marina is not considered a private residence so outside normal house/apartment regs. Graham.

The ofgem guidance booklet referred to earlier makes no such distinction, but applies when "any person buys gas or electricity from an authorised supplier and resells it to someone else for domestic use". Amongst several working examples it includes one on how charges can be fairly apportioned in a marina without meters at each berth.

 

[mainsail1]

Yes. I interpreted the regs as meaning you should only have to pay the actual cost of the electricity to the 'landlord'.
Are Service charges legal? It would appear that they are no more than a way of adding to the cost of the electricity. In the New Year I was going to ask the Regulator for a answer.

 

[macd]

Are Service charges legal? It would appear that they are no more than a way of adding to the cost of the electricity. In the New Year I was going to ask the Regulator for a answer.

Yes, they are legal.
The Ofgem document referred to earlier is here: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/74486/11782-resaleupdateoct05.pdf

Service charges are mentioned under 'Other Costs', but, as said early in this thread, the guidance is rather fuzzy.

 

[PeterWright]

Having just been involved in installing pedestals with smart meters at my local club the cost worked out at £1150 per pedestal - and that included laying the underground cables so £5k is steep!
The trouble we now have is, because no one has been checking, our supplier is charging 18.3p/kWh + vat and the vat for business users is 20%. I can feel a price comparison site visit coming on.

In that case you got a very good deal for your installation, I can't imagine that involved cables suitable to supply 50 off 16A outlets per pontoon.

I'm sure you could do better than your current supply contract, but please note that domestic cost comparison sites will be of no use to you. Suppliers will see you as a business (hence 20% vat on energy) and none of the domestic consumer legislation applies, including the right to switch whenever you want. Business supply is a completely different market.

Find out when your current contract expires and start negotiating about 3 months before that date. There are brokers who will act for you and, if your annual consumption is big enough, will do so for free, taking their cut from the supplier. Others charge a percentage of the saving they achieve for you over your current suppliers best bid in the first year of the new contract.

Due to current economic uncertainties, the prices suppliers are quoting for contracts beyond 2 year duration are not attractive at the moment.

Peter

 

[PeterWright]

Peter, I don't doubt your costs but these are "capital" costs in most cases when building a marina, just the same as costs for buildings, walkways, pontoons etc. The annual ongoing costs of maintenance & replacement is minor in comparison to the capital cost which should be recovered + profit margin in the general charges over a period of years. It would appear that those who don't use any electricity have no service charge although their facility still has to be inspected and serviced, is that reasonable? Certainly in the past when I had flats and bed sitters, there was a cap on daily meter charge but I would guess that a marina is not considered a private residence so outside normal house/apartment regs. Graham.

Hi Graham,

A perfectly reasonable point of view, but many marinas were built before shore power was made available, and those that first started providing it were mostly on 6A supplies. As with most changes, it came about through clients asking for the service, so a harbour was faced with the question of how to meet the clients needs at a reasonable cost. Most worked out that the total capital cost would not be serviced, let alone recovered, even over 20 years, so as I said, it is partly paid for out of the berthing income. However, as I said earlier, those clients not taking electricity (the majority in the early years of this service) would have been upset at a berthing price hike to pay for something they don't use hence the service charge approach. Truth is, you can't please all the customers all of the time!

Peter

 

[SteveA]

Peter,

You are quite right - we have 16 pedestals fitted with 4 16A outlets and 10 with 2 outlets each.

Your advice regarding negotiating contracts has been helpful and will be something I'll be looking into in the new year; although we are considered a business I think that, because we are CASC registered and not for profit, we should be paying 5% on energy; for our small club this would make quite a difference giving a saving of about £1200 a year.

 

[Sybarite]

Our's is free.

 

[davierobb]

I think we might be in the same marina, it begins with A. Example 8A in the doc covers marinas and it doesn't allow for infrastructure charges. In fact the document seems to ve very clear in that infrastructure can't be included in the charge. I think we need a user group at said marina.

Update
I've just had a call returned from one of the marina directors and it appears that they are stuck in a rather pricey fixed price contract till later in the year. The new 80p per Kwh unit charge to users is actually slightly less than they are paying, taking vat, standing and peak demand charges into account. The old contract for electricity expired last year when electricity prices were going loopy and the current contract was the best available at the time.

 

[Fimacca]

my bunch charge £10 service charge a month. until recently it was more than the kw used until the prices rocketed.
seems excessive to me.........but there are a lack of berths available in the south west - so what can you do....

 

[steveeasy]

my bunch charge £10 service charge a month. until recently it was more than the kw used until the prices rocketed.
seems excessive to me.........but there are a lack of berths available in the south west - so what can you do....

Not use it.

Steveeasy

 

[harvey38]

£152 electricity annual charge at Ramsgate. I have no complaints though, all 16A metered bollards, reliable, PAYG and email notification when credit fall below £10.