Main sail furling

Re: FWIW

I'm only speaking from my observations, as stated I've never sailed with in-mast reefing. Don't take offence at this - it seems to me that there's a trade-off between performance and convenience and this is most obvious in light winds. For many, this trade-off is worth having for the ease of handling, and I have no problems with this. I'm certainly not knocking the concept.

A furling main is smaller and cut flatter than a conventional main and I cannot understand how you suggest this doesn't lead to some lack of performance?

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There is no need to go to the mast on the Bavaria selden system, only if you wish/need to use the mast mounted winch to pull the main back in, and that is only necessary in the unlikely event of the continuous loop furling line breaking or being lost. The lever is kept in the ratchet position as a "brake" to prevent accidental deployment of the main when moored. When sailing, the sail is prevented from accidently deploying by the furling line clutches.

I don't see the need to go to the mast at all - defeats the object totally.

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<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

I am not sure that the mains set so well - going to windward, being loose footed.

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Loose footed mains on performace dinghies seem to set fine - they are usually fully or 3/4 battened though (no reefing required!). It just depends on how much tension you can apply to the outhaul - some yachts don't seem to want to pull the outhaul on - leaves far too much belly in the sail - with or without inmast reefing ...


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Well said Nicho and AFrogley, I was typing a response on your two points and then noticed your replies. Michael has a thing about Bavarias, something to do with a bad delivery trip experience I think?

Selden seem to have a respected in-mast furling design and yes loose footed mains are the performance oriented choice.

I once chartered an awful Yankee Hunter 410 with an in-mast furling system that was a pain to use but I would not condemn Hunter yachts based on this experience, SunSail maintenance... well that's another matter.

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Re: Gettin better

Hi Robin

The vast majority, perhaps all or close to it, of new large yachts use in boom reefing. There may be a number of new vessels in the smaller 50-80 foot (80 foot being the bottom end range of superyachts) which still install in mast but above 80 foot there would not be many.

For those amateurs who wish to take exception to the above, I suggest that you check your facts first (one easy and pleasant place to do that is in the superyacht section of Yachting World).

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
 
This thread is very interesting from the point of view that a bunch of fair weather sailors seem to think that based on their selection of in mast reefing that is the only way for anyone to go and any criticism of that is nonsense.

Yet there are posters who quote experiences of jamb ups in quite benign conditions and which were able to be sorted (perhaps, in an instance or two, trying to stamp some sort of quality on in mast by the ability to sort the problem). Perhaps those problems would not have been nearly so easily sorted in heavy weather (sort of 45 knots plus weather).

Seems to me irresponsible to give categoric advice, as some seem to be doing, to a poster who has not identified what type of sailing he does to state that in mast is the only way to go. As I said earlier, the choice is intimately dependant on what ones sailing is. If one buys boats for a charter fleet that spends much of its time motoring or never out of relatively sheltered waters, or if one only expects to sail under those conditions then in mast has lots of attractions.

But if one requires a higher level of certainty for voyages in areas subject to changes to heavy weather, and those changes are rapid or there are long distances to refuges should they occur, then in mast may not be so attractive.

I would be interested in hearing the experiences from those who have made North Atlantic (or other temperate or higher ocean) winter crossings encountering heavy weather, Southern Ocean voyages, etc in vessels with in mast reefing - I suspect that there will not be many.

Mundane sub tropic and tropic oceanic voyages can be safely conducted with in mast and in almost any boat, as can fair weather sailing in temperate regions, but it is nonsense and dangerous to others, as some are doing, to suggest that means in mast is the solution for all. It depends very much on the application. I find it strange that some do not seem to understand that and it is intriguing that any suggestion that an informed choice based on ones actual sailing intentions should be made is taken by some as as an unacceptable criticism of in mast.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
 
Re: Gettin better

Hi John

Not much discussion above about in-boom reefing was there! I don't know much about it even for normal sized boats but there were (maybe still are) systems offered here that never really caught on. I did ask my sailmaker what he thought of them (this is years back) and he said the friction on the luff was a major problem, one had a teflon impregnated luff tape and I gather they need replacing rather often. But without a lottery win I think I will be sticking with what we have and good old slab reefing!

They are correct that the modern in mast gears are more reliable. Unfortunately the jams are caused mostly it seems by stretched sails or by operator error which can (therefore will) still happen. The roller headsails many compare them to are different in as much as the sail isn't rolled up in a tube, a jam in the control line is a deck level sort out and the sail can still be dropped if fully out or rolled by wrapping around manually (boat doing circles). All of which is academic as far as I'm concerned as I would not have in-mast for purely performance reasons, especially in light winds, I want to sail not motor along flying a rollaway white flag!

Robin


<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Re: Gettin better

Hi Robin

Your last sentence about rolled up white flags might have the effect of an unrolled red one /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

The boat next to us (around 44 foot) has in boom reefing and they have problems with that from time to time. Worst was in the Pacific where they wrote the mainsail off (but at least they could get the sail down).

We are still waiting for summer... spent the weekend on the yacht, was hitting 60 knots in the marina (70 in harbour entrance), very heavy rain and cold. A local yacht arrived back from the Pacific last night and this morning was on the VHF thanking harbour radio, customs, etc for the assistance they had all given to get him onto the customs berth safely - he was still on it.

The 91 metre cat (Incat 46, same as the Portsmouth/Cherbourg one I think, which is Incat 47) was stopped because of the conditions. People are talking about skiing over Christmas /forums/images/icons/frown.gif.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
 
Re: Gettin better

Happy Christmas/New Year John and all

I will stop complaining about English weather then (note not British, we are in the sunny south, Haggis and Leek free zone). /forums/images/icons/smile.gif It's been in the 50's here mostly but colder today, we're just of to play golf so it can't be too bad can it AND it will start to get lighter every day up here and darker down your way next week yippeeeee!

Robin


<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Re: FWIW

I can't let this one slip by. Firstly, did the other boat know they had to hurry to keep up with you? I am sure that we can always remember situations where we left similar boats standing. And the reason for this is that WE did. We passed a Moody 376 with fully battened newish main so quickly that it looked as if he was anchored./forums/images/icons/smile.gif
And we have an old on-mast main.
BUT, nobody has mentioned what to me is a fundamental point. Cornish Maid has a very large foretriangle. The main drive is from the genoa; the mainsail is very much a balancing sail to reduce weather helm etc. So, it isn't quite as simple as a 'good' fb mainsail v. a 'good' in-mast mainsail.


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I do think that it is important to consider the area sailed and the type of cruising to be undertaken when considering what is the most suitible equipment.

In mast reefing will probably suit 99% of the sailing folks - not for racing boats. It seems to me it enables short handed crew (husband and wife - older less active folks) to reef easily and keep reefing even when it gets lumpy, without someone having to leave the cockpit.

There is no good reason that the better makes should fail more frequently than other equipment in a boat - one of the joys of sailing is that if it can break/fail at the most in oppertune moment then it probalbly will...

I think the UK waters are pretty demanding - possibly some of the most demanding in the world with their tides, currents, shallows and density of merchant shipping. (Far more challanging than the Auckland to Bay of Islands waters for example, more comparable to the Cook Straights and southwards)

Having said that UK waters do have a lot of ports of refuge accessible in most conditions, very sophisticated weather forecasting and communications.

Boats circumnavigate with inmast - I bet a lot of the boats in this years ARC have in mast and the failure rate will be low. If it was a truly bad system then the reports of failures would be wide spread. This does not mean Slab reefing is bad - its excellent it is really a matter of choice - One should not consider all equipment as if it is going to be used continusly for weeks



<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time please visit my web site -
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>
 
<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

In mast reefing will probably suit 99% of the sailing folks - not for racing boats

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I think rather more than 1% race.
I think rather more than 1% who don't race still do not want to lose performance, especially in light winds.

<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

It seems to me it enables short handed crew (husband and wife - older less active folks) to reef easily and keep reefing even when it gets lumpy, without someone having to leave the cockpit.

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Yes it does. But so does a single line or 2-line slab reefing system with the lines taken back to the cockpit. With these systems you can use proper mainsails, no area loss and proper shape or better still fully battened mainsails which will increase the sail area and set even better. By the way in case you have missed me repeating it many times, we sail a 41ft boat with a 400sq ft fully battened mainsail with just a husband and wife crew always, and I will get a free bus pass in 3 months time! It is pefectly possible to have the best of both worlds, full performance, simple no risk of jamming, and all done in the comfort and safety of the cockpit, by using a single or two line slab reefing system.

<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

Boats circumnavigate with inmast - I bet a lot of the boats in this years ARC have in mast and the failure rate will be low

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As you well know, the ARC is not a circumnavigation, it is a tradewind Atlantic crossing with little call for windward sailing. The failure rate I would expect for slab reefed sails would be zero. I think zero is preferable to 'low' failure rate.


<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

One should not consider all equipment as if it is going to be used continuously for weeks

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Really???? I don't want anything on my boat that isn't made to last! I would add here too that the in-mast mechanics are pretty reliable anyway, but the jams are caused mostly by stretched sails or operator error and there are plenty of husband and wife elderly crews (your words) who will have old stretched sails!

All down to personal choice as has been said many times, but please don't try and distort the choices by saying in-mast is the only option for easy and safe reefing, it isn't because there is a very valid alternative.

Robin






<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Re: FWIW

Becky

Given enough wind and away from closehauled then the difference between similar boats with/without in-mast would be down to other factors like a clean bottom and a savvy crew. It is when the wind drops a notch and/or the course heads upwind that the differences show up.

<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

Cornish Maid has a very large foretriangle. The main drive is from the genoa; the mainsail is very much a balancing sail to reduce weather helm etc. So, it isn't quite as simple as a 'good' fb mainsail v. a 'good' in-mast mainsail.

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Mainsail function isn't for balancing weather helm. You can have weather helm with just the genoa up and pulling out/hoisting the main will not reduce it but add to it, the problem in this instance being too much sail causing heeling and an asymetric underwater shape. An old mainsail that is stretched out of shape whether it be an in-mast or a slab type WILL cause weather helm though and believe me a new sail will transform the boat, old worn out sails are SLOW!

In your case it is academic as the boat came fitted with the system you had and you will not be comparing to another similar boat, but to what you had before which was smaller and slower - you don't miss what you never had. But if it were me planning some blue water cruising I would at least want to start with a new and quality mainsail and a fuly serviced in-mast system, but then that's me.

Happy Christmas/New year

Robin



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Gosh Robin - that was serious!

I intended it to be read that inmast furling would suit possibly 99% of cruising boats but not sailing boats....................

How many reefs can you get into your main with the one line system? I personally would never be happy with less than 3 - Have you never had problems with slab reefing - I have - 5 water spouts - 50 knots gusting higher and the bb block broke as I was pulling in the last reef - nothing in a boat is full proof - ever.. There will be failures of equipment in the ARC and with all long distance cruising boats - happens. Wait and see,,,

What I am trying to express is that it is horses for courses. For the sort of sailing 99% of folks do I think inmast reefing is a positive asset and I have met a lot of circumnavigators with it. It is really a matter of choice/wallet/ and what where how you sail. Most people do not go off shore for weeks on end - you will find the 24/7 use of equipment in varied conditions leads to far more failures than the same period of time sailed with time in harbour to do minor or is it annual maintance.?

The wonderful thing about boats is that there is no right answer - only personal experiece and opinion -

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Sorry I didn't mean it to sound like an attack!/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

We have 3 full slab reefs plus a flattening reef. We have a 2-line system with separate lines for each tack reef and each clew reef, all come back to the cockpit via high quality blocks and deck organisers then via banks of clutches to 2 self tailing winches mounted on the coachroof under the sprayhood. There are no blocks on the sail at all and the clew lines enter the boom via the built in sheaves in the boom, the tack lines lead directly via fairleads on the mast to the mast base turning blocks then back as before. We also have a separate track fitted to take a trysail without having to remove the existing mainsail.

Good job you had slab reefing when you met the waterspouts & 50kt gusts, that would not have been a good time to have an-in mast sail jam!/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Robin



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
As you say Michael it is horses for courses and that is the point that is trying to be made. Looking at some of the "for in mast" posts there seems to be some considerable lack of appreciation of that.

Slab has performance, heavy conditions safety/reliability advantages, in mast (and in boom) has convenience. Undoubtedly with development in the future those respective advantages may change.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
 
Re: FWIW

Just adding a little to the explanation Robin gave about the mainsail/genoa and weather helm - many boats you can reduce weather helm by reefing the genoa and leaving the mainsail as is. This is especially so with quite asymetric hull shapes where heeling increases weather helm so any reduction in press keeping the boat on its feet will reduce it.

Also depends on how the sailplan has been designed - most boats are designed for balance at low angles of heel, so again they will tend more to weather helm when heeled than one for which the sailplan/hull/appendages are designed for balance at more heel.

In our own case we have a fin keeled/balanced rudder boat that was designed fine forward (for heavy sea conditions) but beamy aft with quite alot of canoe draft (waterline to keelson) so is quite asymetric. As it becomes more pressed the bow goes down and as it gets beyond moderate heel the contribution to weather helm from that becomes significant. Putting the boat back on its feet by reducing the genoa area puts the boat back into balance.

The few long keeled narrowish more symetric hulled boats I have helmed, behave exactly as you say - reduce mainsail to reduce weather helm.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
 
John,
Why do you assume that most people don't know what they are talking about? Have you personally investigated modern in mast systems? it would appear not. What most people are saying is go and investigate and then make their minds up. My credentials: Sailing for over 50 years both in European and US waters. Own yacht ownership since 1986. Many many many miles sailed both cruising and racing in all conditions. I used to be a slab reefing only bod until I investigated modern inmast systems with Selden and a variety of sail makers in 2000 , so quite late in my career!!! I settled on the Hood system that is fully battened and this increases the size of the roach significently and with a modern cloth - Vecram the performance loss is not as great as anticipated. We have reefed very easily in an 8 and have complete confidence in the system. Why not go and investigate at LIBS and perhaps take a slightly less condescending view?

Hood Website is a good starting point (it is where I started looking early in 2000)
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hood-sails.com/flash_content/productfr.html>http://www.hood-sails.com/flash_content/productfr.html</A>
(Kim remove the link if viewed as inappropriate)

This note is not meant to be a flame!!!!

Pete

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Why not go and investigate at LIBS and perhaps take a slightly less condescending view?

It is more than a long walk from here to London, even for a condescending cat. If you had actually read my posts before jumping all over me and to silly conclusions you would have known that there is no chance of me visiting the LBS.

So, even though you apparantly don't read before you leap, some quick responses to your other questions and points. -

Why do you assume that most people don't know what they are talking about?

I usually assume that anyone (including myself) posting a question is seeking an informed response and a balanced view.

Have you personally investigated modern in mast systems?

Yes.

What most people are saying is go and investigate and then make their minds up.

If you had actually read my posts you will see that I am the one that has said this more often than anyone in this thread, yet you seem to be taking exception to my doing so - very strange? It would seem that the only people who have pointed out that people should weigh up the advantages and disadvantages to their particular sailing type of all systems are a few posters who do not have in mast reefing. Perhaps you are just making trouble.

My (meaning Iota's) credentials

Obviously far superior to that of any 6 year old cat.

John
 
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