Long keels handling and going astern: Need advice and encouragment.

[Obi]

Sorry if this a little long winded...

I decided to have a little play with going astern yesterday after leaving my berth for a single handed sail. In the confines of the marina it was tricky, neighbours must have looked on in glee/horror depending on how close they were to me. So I made my departure resolving to have a go in the open space of the Solent.
I have a 85hp Perkins (or is it 80hp), and a three blade prop, significant prop walk to port.

My helm is generally quite heavy under engine with the prop washing over the rudder. But going astern at about 3-4-5 knots I could eventually get a straight line, and even turn to starboard.

Do any of you experience the same characteristics, I knew she would be hard work. Has anyone found a way to work around this? Can we exist only going forward in the UK, Europe and the Med, apart from when leaving a berth?

Having now moved berths where previously when going astern to leave my birth the prop walk lined me up nicely for leaving the fairway going forwards, and coming in momentum and prop walk worked in my favour to get my into my berth. However, I now have to come out of my berth, the stern pulls to port, then I go forwards hard to starboard, and spin 180' using prop walk to pull the stern to port, and then helm forwards to s/b. This was fine until I was being blown off in only about 10 kts of wind pushing me to starboard, I got part way round, abeam to the wind, and then the bows went off down fairway and I drifted about 4 berths down the fairway before managing to get 180' round to come out forwards. Thankfully there was room to drift! perhaps I should have gone forwards to starboard a lot harder?


Bearing this in mind, upon my return I opted to not employ my usual tactic of passing my berth by 3 or 4 lengths, and spinning through 180' and coming back at it facing towards the finger. This tactic means that i can get the momentum of the yacht turning into the berth to take me towards the finger rather than coming the other way and momentum taking me "off" the berth towards my neighbour. Had I been confident to pass by, spin the 180' then return it would have been less of a debacle, but I didnt fancy trying my luck after the morning :-(

I knew she would be hard work, but I thought I would learn to handle it more quickly. Has anyone found a way to get cope with this kind of characteristic admirably?

Can we exist only going forward in the UK, Europe and the Med, apart from when leaving a berth? I am/want to do a lot of single handed, maybe this is where the plan falls down. I dont have the pennies for a bow thruster and thought that I could learn the skills to manage without one, Ive never used one on any yacht, and always managed ok with a fin keel, even with 3 blade props.

I may have stuck my neck too far above the parapet by admitting all of this, but hopefully something constructive may come out of this thread that helps me and any others going through this.

Thanks in advance.
Mark

 

[Ludd]

Sorry if this a little long winded...

I decided to have a little play with 'going astern' after leaving my berth a few days ago for a single handed sail. In the confines of the marina it was chaotic and I didnt seem to find any way of getting control, neighbours must have looked on in glee/horror depending on how close they were to me. So I made my departure resolving to have a go in the open space of the Solent.
I have a 85hp Perkins (or is it 80hp), and a three blade prop, significant prop walk to port. My keel is not a full long keel, I have an Oyster39, so its "semi" long I believe is the right phrase. Skeg hung rudder as well.

My helm is generally quite heavy, especially under engine with the prop washing over the rudder. But going astern at about 3-4-5 knots the rudder was even heavier. I could eventually get a straight line if I picked up such pace (3/4/5 kts), I could eventually even turn to starboard, but I really wouldnt want to "have" to do this in a marina because of the unpredicatable nature, and ever more scary is contemplating this single handed. Im also concerned that having the rudder in that position whilst going astern fast enough to get steerage will put undue stress on the rudder stock. Lord forbid I would have to turn one way then another, that would really feel like I was giving the rudder stock punishment.

Having now moved berths where previously when going astern to leave my birth the prop walk lined me up nicely for leaving the fairway going forwards, and coming in momentum and prop walk worked in my favour to get my into my berth. However, I now have to come out of my berth, the stern pulls to port regardless, then I go forwards hard to starboard, and spin 180' using prop walk to pull the stern to port, and then helm forwards to s/b. This was fine until I was being blown off in only about 10 kts of wind pushing me to starboard, I got part way round, abeam to the wind, and then the bows went off down fairway and I drifted about 4 berths down the fairway before managing to get 180' round to come out forwards. Thankfully there was room to drift! perhaps I should have gone forwards to starboard a lot harder?


Bearing this in mind, upon my return I opted to not employ my usual tactic of passing my berth by 3 or 4 lengths, and spinning through 180' and coming back at it facing towards the finger. This tactic means that i can get the momentum of the yacht turning into the berth to take me towards the finger rather than coming the other way and momentum taking me "off" the berth towards my neighbour. Had I been confident to pass by, spin the 180' then return it would have been less of a debacle, but I didnt fancy trying my luck after the morning :-(

I knew she would be hard work, but I thought I would learn to handle it and Im not entirely sure this is "conquerable". Has anyone found a way to get cope with this kind of characteristic admirably?

Can we exist only going forward in the UK, Europe and the Med, apart from when leaving a berth? I am/want to do a lot of single handed, maybe this is where the plan falls down. I dont have the pennies for a bow thruster and thought that I could learn the skills to manage without one, Ive never used one on any yacht, and always managed ok with a fin keel, even with 3 blade props.

I may have stuck my neck too far above the parapet by admitting all of this, but hopefully something constructive may come out of this thread that helps me and any others going through this.

Thanks in advance.
Mark

Sympathy,but everything is possible!
1) Boat kicks to port,drag a bucket from the starboard side.
2)Boat weathercocks(head downwind) have a weight dangling over the bowroller on a long line to the cockpit and drop it until head to wind. Then go ahead and pull it up . Looks good if you're drinking a cup of coffee and rolling a cigarette one handed at the same time!

P.S. I use a lump of rusty chain,but I'm thinking of using a 10litre plasic can filled with concrete

 

[sailorman]

Sympathy,but everything is possible!
1) Boat kicks to port,drag a bucket from the starboard side.
2)Boat weathercocks(head downwind) have a weight dangling over the bowroller on a long line to the cockpit and drop it until head to wind. Then go ahead and pull it up . Looks good if you're drinking a cup of coffee and rolling a cigarette one handed at the same time!

almost like "Drudging" then

 

[EastCoastChris]

I may have stuck my neck too far above the parapet by admitting all of this, but hopefully something constructive may come out of this thread that helps me and any others going through this.

Thanks for raising the subject because I too am very interested in any long keeler handling tips / advice as my launch get's ever nearer

Chris

 

[Ludd]

almost like "Drudging" then

That be it!

Another point to remember; 3pt turn can be madewith rudder hard over(say toturn to port). As boat starts to turn/gatherway kick her astern to kill way .She will keep turning .As she stops swinging kick ahead to keep her turning. DO NOT ALTER RUDDER ,until you pointing the right way!

And before Saliorman intervenes ,I call THAT waltzing!

 

[sailorman]

That be it!

Another point to remember; 3pt turn can be madewith rudder hard over(say toturn to port). As boat starts to turn/gatherway kick her astern to kill way .She will keep turning .As she stops swinging kick ahead to keep her turning. DO NOT ALTER RUDDER ,until you pointing the right way!

And before Saliorman intervenes ,I call THAT waltzing!

& the only way to turn in a small area

 

[kalindi]

I currently have a tradewind and previously a rival both having long keels. I have used two techniques to get out of a berth when prop walk works against me. The first and most successfull was to use a stern spring fed out loosely until the bows were clear and then locked for a few mins to pull the stern round smartley, you have to release the spring and pull in quite quickly to avoid a tangle with the prop. The second is to remember that the stern will seek the wind and if in the right direction it is perfectly safe to go astern. I am not sure that I understood your description of the manouvre that you have to make but maybe the two points could help.

 

[Pye_End]

When going astern try taking her out of gear when you have some speed and see if this improves turning.

Put helm over long before you want the boat to turn.

Use squirts of forward gear as a means to steer, even if you have no intention of making forward way.

Use plenty of fenders.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes long keels mmmmmmmm I have a reasonably predictable long keeler and usually manage without help but I am just about to go into a new marina and new berth which is closed not really looking forward to the firs attempt only plus is that there will be no tide to bother with.

 

[Ludd]

Yes long keels mmmmmmmm I have a reasonably predictable long keeler and usually manage without help but I am just about to go into a new marina and new berth which is closed not really looking forward to the firs attempt only plus is that there will be no tide to bother with.

Well there wouldn't be in Staffordshire!!!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Well there wouldn't be in Staffordshire!!!

 

[oceanpilgrim]

well come to the club,i use a lot off power to kick the stern around as soon as forward speed sets in hard astern to stop,a lot of wheel spinning lots of noise,try not to look around "maybe no one noticed",next year i'm fitting a bowthruster all the best ocean pilgrim

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Hi Obi,

I have the same engine, a 3 bladed prop and keel configuration as you. I also have a high bow, 41' and 11 tons. She kicks to port in astern.

Ludds advice is not quite right and if you try this turning to port you will scribe crescent shaped arcs and fail to turn to port. The only tight turn on the keel you can do will be to starboard. I do it as follows: -

Lose forward speed.
Position the boat as best as possible in ahead for a starboard turn
Neutral.
Turn to starboard full lock.
Go into reverse and increase the revolutions and kick your stern to port. Watch the bow for loss of starboard direction.
As you lose forward motion and start taking on reverse flip the wheel all the way to port.
Look at the bow it should be turning to starboard as your pick up reverse direction
Go into neutral
Wheel hard to starboard
Go ahead with throttle and give a burst of ahead until the boat stops going back and just before she goes forward go to neutral.
Repeat if required.

To get out your berth you have to do what kalindi says.

Practice tight turns next to a buoy in the fairway with room both port and starboard to see how stationary you can be the boat next to an object.

My boat has a high bow and is influenced by the wind on it so I have to consider that. I will will go sideways in reverse with wind on my starboard bow its that bad for me. I am way over propped though.

It gets easy and practice makes perfect, spend one of your solo days just doing this.

Big Tips: Pause in neutral and let revs die down before going into gear in any direction, check all throttle linkages are in good condition. On your practice day just bring the boat to a halt and observe how she lies to the wind. Stop her at different aspects to the wind and observe what she does, how she drifts. Do you know the minimum speed for steerage? Half the battle is just understanding what the current or wind will do when you loose steerage.

 

[Ludd]

Now go away,find some still empty water and try all these methods till you find the one that works for you!
You might even find it's easier to go into your berth astern if things are quiet,or if you have crew. Then when you leave solo you've got no problem.

 

[BruceDanforth]

THere's some good ideas on this thread. Mine is only a Hurley 22 bilge keeler with an outboard in a well but there's no prop wash over the rudder so she starts ahead with the bows falling off to starboard and going astern she'll only really do clockwise circles and is also prone to weathercocking. As I'm hoping to single hand mostly I'll be watching to see what else comes up on the thread.

So far to get in and out of my berth the plan is a 270 deg pivot turn or learn to park backwards.

 

[Poignard]

2)Boat weathercocks(head downwind) have a weight dangling over the bowroller on a long line to the cockpit and drop it until head to wind. Then go ahead and pull it up . Looks good if you're drinking a cup of coffee and rolling a cigarette one handed at the same time!

P.S. I use a lump of rusty chain,but I'm thinking of using a 10litre plasic can filled with concrete

Here is what I use. It's a lead sash weight. Very compact and, being a square section, it won't roll around the deck and mangle your fingers.

 

[Goldie]

I'm on my 3rd long keeler and after 16 years with this one, I can tell you what she's going to do - I'm just powerless to influence it much! The moral there is try to work with what the boat wants to do rather than fight it. It probably won't help in a marina berth, but practice springing off (both ways, bow and stern) for when you're being blown on to an alongside berth; and if the wind's blowing you off, why not consider rigging a slip line and allow the wind to pivot you around? Alternatively, and if there's space, 'wind ship'. Drudging as previously described is useful and if your Oyster 39 is a ketch, experiment to see what affect using the mizzen has. I used to have a berth where one way to get the boat facing the right way to depart the marina in a certain wind direction was to reverse out of the berth with the mizzen scandalised and using plenty of power to 'back and fill' (or 'waltz') combined with dropping the mizzen boom down and sheeting in hard, would allow me to turn her head to wind for departure. As others have said, the natural state is almost certainly for the stern to seek the wind. Another method was to reverse out with a loose running spring flaked on the pontoon and then check the stern leaving the bow to swing in the required direction. This method relies on the spring running free and has the disadvantage of a lot of rope potentially being in the water at just the time when you may be making judicious use of the throttle -it has worked well for me in the in the past, but is probably best tried with someone ashore to slip the spring or recover it ashore.

What else? Fender for every eventuality, warp her if in doubt and when following someone into a channel/marina, allow plenty of space between you in case they stop and start to back up! One of the worst scenarios is finding yourself trying to turn around having gone down a marina channel with a following wind - you will almost certainly find yourself going sideways down the chanel in a series of forward/reverse crescents. In this instance, it might pay to use what the boat wants to do again and this is probably one scenario when the boat might actually go astern as bid as the stern will be into wind. In short, plan ahead and try to envisage what the boat will be trying to do and use it to your advantage. No it's not easy and no it doesn't always work as planned and yes, sailors of more manouvreable hull shapes wonder what the heck you're doing sometimes - but I've still never felt the need for a bow thruster!

 

[dmmbruce]

What excellent advice on this thread.

You have reminded me of so many things I had forgotten, and mentioned lots of things I never knew!

THANK-YOU to all of you!

Mike

 

[Poignard]

Springing off the stern when single-handed?

.... It probably won't help in a marina berth, but practice springing off (both ways, bow and stern) .....

Sensible advice on your post, Goldie, but what technique do you use to spring the stern off when single handed? Seems to me you need to be in two places at once - in the cockpit to operate the engine and on the bow to release the spring. How do you manage it?

 

[kds]

Yes - some excellent advice.
My long-keeler sometimes even does what I want - which completely confuses me, as I never expect it ! Must also admit that I seem powerless to influence events - but am getting a bit better at forecasting them.
But - I don't like the idea of lines loose in the water when manoeuvring as I am usually single-handed and can't get them in fast enough.
ken