Long keels handling and going astern: Need advice and encouragment.

[Avocet]

Avocet's a very traditional long-keeler, not unlike a Folkboat, in fact. Like many of her kind, she's never gone the same way astern twice in succession! Springing off is possible, but (also like many of her kind) she is low powered and very narrow in the beam, so if there is anything more than a Force 2 blowing on to the pontoon (or any kind of tide pushing us on to it), FORGET IT!

The only thing that has ever helped is to try and build up prop speed VERY slowly. If I cast off and whack the throttle open, the prop walk seems to be the dominant effect. If I put the boat astern under a very light throttle opening and start to establish some sort of flow over the rudder and THEN cast off, she seems a bit better behaved (but only a bit)! Of course, we can do that with only 12 HP and a 3 ton displacement. You'd probably loose fingers with 10 tons and 85 horses! For us, if it's at all tricky, warping in is usually the way to go - but that's with only 3 tons. I appreciate it might not be so easy on a big boat.

 

[Mrs FG]

When we had a bilge-keeler, I used to regard it as a failure, except in very hostile conditions, if I had to use reverse to "park" - I would aim to stop in the right place just by loss of momentum (this proved very useful when we lost reverse gear one day, going into Yarmouth). Even though I have the luxury of double-handing, now that we have a Tradewind, it's a huge comfort to discover that everyone else thinks it's a considerable challenge to manoeuvre a long-keeler - I thought I was just a scaredy-cat.

 

[BruceDanforth]

I don't understand what you are saying? I moor down a marina 'corridor' that is narrower than my turning circle at steerage speed. The hurley is more of a sod to manouvere than a Nich 32 which is a long keeler. My engine controls are seperate, in a well behind me, there's no prop wash over the rudder going forwards and the rudder in any case is very small. I'm not interested in regarding using my other gear as a failure. I've sailed the Nich into Yarmouth when a morse cable collapsed. i'm sure I am a parking failure compared to you but I've also sailed across the Pacific and I'm not afraid to admit weakness and canvas the opinions of more experienced members of the forum. What exactly are very hostile conditions, what is your message please?

 

[Mrs FG]

I don't understand what you are saying? I moor down a marina 'corridor' that is narrower than my turning circle at steerage speed. The hurley is more of a sod to manouvere than a Nich 32 which is a long keeler. My engine controls are seperate, in a well behind me, there's no prop wash over the rudder going forwards and the rudder in any case is very small. I'm not interested in regarding using my other gear as a failure. I've sailed the Nich into Yarmouth when a morse cable collapsed. i'm sure I am a parking failure compared to you but I've also sailed across the Pacific and I'm not afraid to admit weakness and canvas the opinions of more experienced members of the forum. What exactly are very hostile conditions, what is your message please?

I certainly don't regard _other people_ as failures for using the "brakes", especially on a boat more difficult to manoeuvre than a bilge keeler - sorry if you mistook my personal game with myself for judgement of others. My point was that, on the previous boat, I used to be something of a perfectionist, except in, say, a strong crosswind, and it was usually reassuring to others that if I had hit anything, it would never have been at speed. Therefore, I find it disconcerting on the Tradewind to have to frantically spin the wheel and grind gears, rather than using, basically, hand-eye co-ordination alone. I don't think I'd have sailed a Nich into Yarmouth - I wouldn't have had the bottle -I'd have picked up one of the buoys, and thought myself very clever to have done so!
I think we're vehemently agreeing here!

 

[BruceDanforth]

The disconcerting thing is the noise of the revving engine and watching the racing boats spin on their keels and make an easy approach, but which would you rather be on if the weather blew up? We were already pretty much in Yarmouth when the cable collapsed doing the revving and pivoting, and it would have been harder getting out so unrolled a few feet of headsail and got away with it. This little Hurley though I'm planning on getting someone in for a few hours for a few tips and I'm getting an idea why the peaceful little end of the marina where no-one much goes except in little motorboats with engines that steer is mostly empty in the first place. I think we are agreeing, yes.

 

[Mrs FG]

The disconcerting thing is the noise of the revving engine and watching the racing boats spin on their keels and make an easy approach, but which would you rather be on if the weather blew up? We were already pretty much in Yarmouth when the cable collapsed doing the revving and pivoting, and it would have been harder getting out so unrolled a few feet of headsail and got away with it. This little Hurley though I'm planning on getting someone in for a few hours for a few tips and I'm getting an idea why the peaceful little end of the marina where no-one much goes except in little motorboats with engines that steer is mostly empty in the first place. I think we are agreeing, yes.

Funny, Ed - I was just about to point out that we were extremely lucky that our marina manager also owns a Tradewind, and knows exactly how difficult they are to drive; so we were able to swap our extremely sheltered mooring down a narrow dead-end, for one which is much more convenient - less shelter is not a problem with the heavier boat. Fixed fenders on the pontoon help, too, not least with confidence.
I think half the solution is just accepting that it is difficult, and there is no magical technique which will make it look easy or elegant. Mooring and un-mooring without damaging anything is a perfectly acceptable standard, and it's unlikely that anyone watching you would be doing any better.

 

[Evadne]

I've always maintained that long keels are predictable but intractable, which is another way of saying they do what they want to, not what you want. Learning turning circles in either direction and the extent of weathercocking is 90% of the battle, you can then work out what she'll do in response to your efforts at the tiller. Which is not to say I still don't end up pinned across a pontoon occasionally, even after 25 years of practice.

 

[jeanne]

I sympathize with the OP: I have sailed my long keeler for 25 years without finding an all-purpose solution for marina berthing.
I offer this solution, which will solve the problem completely.
Keep the boat on a mooring!
You will enjoy your sailing more, and save money into the bargain.

 

[Obi]

What a great response, just what I need thanks! Lots of practical advice, humour, encouragement and sympathetic tales of similar challenges. I did laugh several times reading the responses.

I love the line: "Mooring and un-mooring without damaging anything is a perfectly acceptable standard".

It all makes me feel better. Mum and Dad are down next week, Dad hasnt sailed for some time now and at least if or when it all goes pear shaped I can convincingly say "long keeled boats Dad" ;-)

Thanks everyone!
Mark

 

[NPMR]

We used warps all the time

Our long keeler was hopeless in reverse so we just didn't bother.

Came in to a marina berth forwards. Warped her round (really easy to do) and left going forwards.

Did this for a chap panicking in Guernsey St Peter Port once. He was very close to clobbering us with his 40 foot+ motor sailer, backing and filling so I persuaded him to stop. We warped him round, One rope on each end of the boat, outside everything, and just tugged and let the wind waft him round. Silent. No energy. Very safe and stress free. And quick too.

So why bother with engine?

And if you need to back out from a finger berth, put a rope across the fingers, with BOTH ends on your boat. Back up. If it goes the right way, let it. Pull the rope on board. Revs on when the rope's out of the water.

If it goes the 'wrong' way, wait till you're out a bit, put it in neutral and pull the stern in the direction you want it to be. Rope out of the water, then revs on.

The great thing I learnt was that unless it's really blowing, in a marina, a long-keeler will rest quite a lot allowing you to do all necessary things such as rope retrieval, slowly, so less often a c*ck up.

PS If you pull the rope slowly, the final bit doesn't flick itself into a knot (at which point, you DO have problem!)

 

[Obi]

Kalindi - as you suggested (or were first to) I managed to reverse out of the berth, into wind and out of the fairway this week ;-) It almost looked as if I dont have a long keel

Onwards and upwards.
Thanks,
M

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Obi

Cant help directly with your problem but I had a parallel experience when I first bought a Prout cat with a single drive leg and found myself drifting all over the marina if there was any cross wind at all. The "grip" on the water was hopeless. Felt quite depressed and slightly panicky in the "what have I done " way.

A few months experience, plenty of practice in both good and bad conditions and I could make that boat dance. I'm sure the same thing applies to you, so stop worrying (if you are doing) and just get out and learn the boat. It will come.

After all, if the old sailers could do it with unpowered unhandy old wooden things ......................

 

[Ubergeekian]

Kalindi - as you suggested (or were first to) I managed to reverse out of the berth, into wind and out of the fairway this week ;-) It almost looked as if I dont have a long keel

I had to reverse Jumblie out of a berth with a 15 - 20 kt quartering wind on Monday. Oh dear Lord, what a pig's ear. Still, I grinned cheerfully as though I really had intended to to the whole trip out of the marina backwards...

 

[doug748]

This has been a grand thread - a few random points:
Being singlehanded I always find leaving a berth more difficult than arriving, maybe because you have little time to worry and fret as you come in.
I am glad Avocet has doubts about springing off. I have never managed to achieve more than moderate success either. Springing the bow off works best for me, I would only try the stern in ideal circumstances.
I have a long (20m+)8mm, floating, high vis, polyprop line that I use as a centre spring for coming alongside, and as a conventional spring. The finish is slippy so that helps to prevent tangles but even so bringing in any long line is a worry, as you depart. It has a bit of stretch , so that helps when used for coming alongside.
When leaving a finger berth (backwards) I reverse against this centre spring (juggle the tiller to get her sitting right) whilst I get all other lines in. When ready flick the line off the cleat and hope it lets go cleanly from the pontoon. I keep it as short as possible and let it trail in the water as I attend to the immediate problem of which way the boat chooses to go; I try to get in in before I start to move forward.
With little, or favourable, tide or wind, the best thing is to shove the boat in the right direction and jump aboard at the bow. Does not look cool but is very effective, if people would try this in sheltered tight spots like St Peter Port Marina there would be less bumps. Winding the boat is the first thing to consider, has anyone any tips on turing a boat in a finger berth?
I love the drudge idea from the bow but think I would be too worried about snagging it. Parsival when do you use it/ do you drop it to the seabed/do you use it singlehanded/ any problems?
One of the worst situations is trying to reverse out of a finger with the wind off the bow, knowing that you have to bring the bow through the wind in order to make your exit....
..... I once rigged a spring out of 30lb fishing line carefully working out the lengths needed, it was a very tricky spot. I moved the boat backwards, and jumped aboard fending as I went, the bow started to take charge in open water, just as the tension came on the fishing line attached at the stern, it stretched and stretched, the boat slowed, bobbed and swung roung to the manner born, pointing directly at the exit. At that point I cut one end of the line and away I went. A Frechman shouted Hurrah and waved his hat, I have never been more proud. I sent this to Tom Cunliffe and never got a reply, can't say I blame him, it made me bald and grey before my time.