stevie69p
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting the figure of 37% ballast ratio for the LM27 from?
IIRC, the boat weighs 4000kg and there's 1800kg of ballast, so the ratio is 45%.
Lm 30 with bige keels - do they roll a bit?
- Thread starter Scotty_Tradewind
- Start date
Where are you getting the figure of 37% ballast ratio for the LM27 from?
IIRC, the boat weighs 4000kg and there's 1800kg of ballast, so the ratio is 45%.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Yacht-net gives LM27 displacement as 10,913 lb and ballast as 3,968 lb and that is what I used. Now having looked up Sail-data instead it gives displacement as 8,818 and ballast as 3,968 which is indeed 45%. On balance having converted 4000kg into pounds I think Sail-data is correct so ratio better than I thought. However now puzzled as to why LM27 is slightly more tippy when moving on side deck in calm water - must be the keel config I guess
stevie69p
Well-Known Member
I have a lot of manufacturer's / importer's info that came with in a file with mine, including plans / sail plans. I don't find mine especially tippy; in fact if anything she feels quite stiff. However she does roll a bit with a quartering sea from astern, and I suspect the canoe stern may have something to do with that, plus the shallow keel. Other than that and a lack of ability to point high to windward without pinching her, she is a great boat, and any downsides are made up for in the accommodation for a 27 footer and the build quality.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Brent Swain
N/A
Bilge keels roll far less than single keels . The keel is the centre of roll, given that all that water on one side does not have time to flow to the other side, in the time it takes to roll. Twin keels means two centres, contradicting one another, damping the roll. They have used them as anti roll devices on cruise ships
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
Stiffness is the result of the combination of many factors, of which ballast ratio and keel configuration are only two, though important ones.
My LM27 seems quite stiff to me, too. I also agree with the rest of your assessment.
But the OP poster was asking about LM30s, and despite the similarities of the concept, interior layout/styling, and quality, that is a very different boat to the LM27 in terms of hull shape and keel format, etc., so I doubt the reliance one could place on how much the LM27 rolls as any indication of how the LM30 does. They may be similar, but they are quite likely not.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Sorry to drift back to the LM27, and away from rolling, but since several owners are contributing here...
...I remember somebody saying a long time ago, that the LM27 sails acceptably, except upwind in more than about 17 knots, when the aerodynamic frontage of the hull and wheelhouse simply refuses to press on into the wind that's driving it.
I don't mind if that's true...I'm completely persuaded by the 50:50 concept, according to which, boats that cosset their crews in rotten weather, justify the compromise of needing the motor, more than a boat which unbendingly requires the helmsman to sit outdoors...
...but I'd like to know if LM27 owners here, routinely reflect on how well this yacht manages to sail, considering its design...
...or whether they're contented to be displacement motor-boatists, happy only to raise sail when the wind's going their way?
...I remember somebody saying a long time ago, that the LM27 sails acceptably, except upwind in more than about 17 knots, when the aerodynamic frontage of the hull and wheelhouse simply refuses to press on into the wind that's driving it.
I don't mind if that's true...I'm completely persuaded by the 50:50 concept, according to which, boats that cosset their crews in rotten weather, justify the compromise of needing the motor, more than a boat which unbendingly requires the helmsman to sit outdoors...
...but I'd like to know if LM27 owners here, routinely reflect on how well this yacht manages to sail, considering its design...
...or whether they're contented to be displacement motor-boatists, happy only to raise sail when the wind's going their way?
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
The LM27 is generally reckoned to be at the sailing end of the motor-sailer concept. Various magazine tests have described it as surprisingly good and fast under sail. I find it very acceptable and certainly not just a downwind sailer.
It doesn't pay to try to sail it too close to the wind, though, whether under or over 17 knots - that's not what it's about, and you'll lose drive and increase leeway due to combination of wide shrouds (= clear side-decks and handy, er, hand holds), shallow draft (= less constrained) and short mainsheet track (= ??more clear space around aft deck/cockpit??). You pays your money . . .
I think the windage issue is overstated. The wheelhouse and cabin look taller than they are, because the relatively low freeboard midships (a handy feature). Parked next to my LM27 in a marina was a fairly typical 26' low wedge-shaped coachroof, 'sporty' looking cruiser (Pegasus 800?). Though a bit more aerodynamic looking at first sight, the top of the other boat's cabin top was higher than the LM27's, and the spray hood was taller than the LM's wheelhouse. The height of those is disguised, on the other boat, by the greater freeboard (with less sheer) than the LM.
A few vids showing them under sail (all these ones have the original open back wheelhouse, while most in UK have doors)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SotkMLefgfo&frags=pl,wn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fOoAGXIB0
http s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN-OpvYZQQM&frags=pl%2Cwn (This one's the LM24, the LM27's baby sister)
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks L.S., those vids certainly show boats sailing to windward, not limping. :encouragement:
The chap seated on the port side in the first vid, seems to be sitting where I thought the galley is located, exactly opposite the helm seat. Am I mistaken?
The chap seated on the port side in the first vid, seems to be sitting where I thought the galley is located, exactly opposite the helm seat. Am I mistaken?
stevie69p
Well-Known Member
With regard to the sailing abilities of the 27, here are my thoughts:
Close hauled: realistically if you want a decent speed, sailing via the luff tell tales on the genoa, it's about 60 degrees off the wind. Expect 4.5 knots. She can be pinched up to 50 degrees with the inner tell tales falling off. Expect 3.5 knots max. These are actual track angles taken via the chartplotter, so they include leeway (which appears fairly considerable due to the lack of keel depth. No particular issues in stronger winds. It's the sea state that will determine performance, where a chop will stop her in her tracks, and you will have to bear off a bit to keep the power on.
Fine reach: no issues, sails well. 5 to 6 knots
Beam reach: no issues, 6 to 7 knots in a decent breeze is usual.
Broad reach: Is prone to rolling from a quartering sea from astern, or a confused sea. Needs at least 6 to 7 knots apparent to keep the genoa filled. I keep thinking about a light airs sail. Is quite happy with stronger winds, just under genoa alone, reefed accordingly.
DDW: wind speed as per broad reach. If winds are light, I usually opt for full main pinned with a preventer rather than the . genoa, as the rolling means the genoa collapses and that drives me nuts. In medium strength winds, it's full sails. In stronger winds it's genoa only.
As for the LM30, well as has been said, the underwater profile is totally different, so above doesn't apply.
Close hauled: realistically if you want a decent speed, sailing via the luff tell tales on the genoa, it's about 60 degrees off the wind. Expect 4.5 knots. She can be pinched up to 50 degrees with the inner tell tales falling off. Expect 3.5 knots max. These are actual track angles taken via the chartplotter, so they include leeway (which appears fairly considerable due to the lack of keel depth. No particular issues in stronger winds. It's the sea state that will determine performance, where a chop will stop her in her tracks, and you will have to bear off a bit to keep the power on.
Fine reach: no issues, sails well. 5 to 6 knots
Beam reach: no issues, 6 to 7 knots in a decent breeze is usual.
Broad reach: Is prone to rolling from a quartering sea from astern, or a confused sea. Needs at least 6 to 7 knots apparent to keep the genoa filled. I keep thinking about a light airs sail. Is quite happy with stronger winds, just under genoa alone, reefed accordingly.
DDW: wind speed as per broad reach. If winds are light, I usually opt for full main pinned with a preventer rather than the . genoa, as the rolling means the genoa collapses and that drives me nuts. In medium strength winds, it's full sails. In stronger winds it's genoa only.
As for the LM30, well as has been said, the underwater profile is totally different, so above doesn't apply.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Really useful stuff on the LM27 though I know its off thread. I cant wait to get my new one out into open water and sail. I and the Navigator decided that weather protection beats speed at our age, and our old Westerly Pentland wont actually go much higher than 50 degrees off wind - well you can point higher but speed drops and leeway increases. The LM27 is not perfect and second watchkeeper must stand sit on the galley work surface (cushion advised) but I think shes going to suit us well, and I am grateful for shared wisdom. If I need to change sails due to their age I'm tempted by 150 genoa as that made big difference to our Pentland but I must judge how tender she is, and I note our rigging is only 4mm not the 6mm as on Pentland and I must think about chainplate strength
stevie69p
Well-Known Member
Good point regarding visibility on the 27. It suffers both when in the wheelhouse on port tack, where as you say, it's better to sit on the high (galley) side, and also in the cockpit area unless you are tall. A second windscreen wiper on the port side would be handy too.
The Scanyacht 290 actually had the galley re-jigged to slide the cooker under the deck and a fold down 2nd helm seat was provided.
Sailing from the cockpit, I find that I stuff a fender under the rear coaming area and sit on that to raise my eye level, or you can stand up.
Every boat out there is a compromise in some department, and I constantly look around at what I would replace mine with for similar money, and come away somewhat disappointed. The standard of fibreglass lay up and the carpentry is excellent and the interior on mine has quite a cool 70's Scandi vibe going on with the original teal coloured wall lamp fittings, etc.
Hope that you have great times with yours.
The Scanyacht 290 actually had the galley re-jigged to slide the cooker under the deck and a fold down 2nd helm seat was provided.
Sailing from the cockpit, I find that I stuff a fender under the rear coaming area and sit on that to raise my eye level, or you can stand up.
Every boat out there is a compromise in some department, and I constantly look around at what I would replace mine with for similar money, and come away somewhat disappointed. The standard of fibreglass lay up and the carpentry is excellent and the interior on mine has quite a cool 70's Scandi vibe going on with the original teal coloured wall lamp fittings, etc.
Hope that you have great times with yours.
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AHoy2
Well-Known Member
Apolgies in advance for continuing the LM27 drift.
I own a Scanyacht 290 (LM27 derivative) and agree with the comments made by stevie69p.
The boat has coped well with extreme Solent chop to channel crossings with large beam swells and some testing trips between the CIs and french ports. The sailing and domestic arrangements have worked well for us as a sailing couple and also for single-handed sailing. SWMBO finds the boat comfortable and reassuring (previous boat having been significantly larger). I have not sailed the boat in company with others of a modern hull configuration to directly compare rolling but do not find it concerning. I have sailed briefly in company with an LM30 but in calm waters only, so no rolling to comment on.
I did purchase the boat for its motor-sailer attributes listed by others but am pleased to say that the sailing capabilty (off the wind) is still satisfying with sufficient breeze. The only sailing issue I have had has been going to windward in a F5 wind with a short choppy sea when the boat would not tack through the wind under sail only, not enough momentum to overcome the seas and get the bow through the wind - the fact that the conditions coincided with engine failure proved a bit testing given the location at the time! The versatilty has been well proven mixing long(ish) passages of 20+ hours with the contrast of drying harbours and delights such as Dinan. Astern manoeuvres can still bring on the long-keel aprehension though.
AHoy2
I own a Scanyacht 290 (LM27 derivative) and agree with the comments made by stevie69p.
The boat has coped well with extreme Solent chop to channel crossings with large beam swells and some testing trips between the CIs and french ports. The sailing and domestic arrangements have worked well for us as a sailing couple and also for single-handed sailing. SWMBO finds the boat comfortable and reassuring (previous boat having been significantly larger). I have not sailed the boat in company with others of a modern hull configuration to directly compare rolling but do not find it concerning. I have sailed briefly in company with an LM30 but in calm waters only, so no rolling to comment on.
I did purchase the boat for its motor-sailer attributes listed by others but am pleased to say that the sailing capabilty (off the wind) is still satisfying with sufficient breeze. The only sailing issue I have had has been going to windward in a F5 wind with a short choppy sea when the boat would not tack through the wind under sail only, not enough momentum to overcome the seas and get the bow through the wind - the fact that the conditions coincided with engine failure proved a bit testing given the location at the time! The versatilty has been well proven mixing long(ish) passages of 20+ hours with the contrast of drying harbours and delights such as Dinan. Astern manoeuvres can still bring on the long-keel aprehension though.
AHoy2
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stevie69p
Well-Known Member
Just in regard to getting the 27 to tack in stronger winds....
I find it is best to reef the genoa to working jib size, and bear away slightly before the tack to increase boat speed, then put the helm down smartly (the tiller pilot auto tack feature as an example is no use, it is too slow and doesn't put the helm down far enough), and also to keep the jib sheeted until the nose has gone through the wind, and allow the jib to back-wind to carry her round, then release the sheet and haul in on the new side. I've never had her refuse to tack using this method, in winds up to a F6.
I find it is best to reef the genoa to working jib size, and bear away slightly before the tack to increase boat speed, then put the helm down smartly (the tiller pilot auto tack feature as an example is no use, it is too slow and doesn't put the helm down far enough), and also to keep the jib sheeted until the nose has gone through the wind, and allow the jib to back-wind to carry her round, then release the sheet and haul in on the new side. I've never had her refuse to tack using this method, in winds up to a F6.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
This is all extremely instructive and informative stuff, thanks very much.
I'd never looked very hard at the LM27 till lately - I think I preferred the trawler-style motorsailers and sleeker deck-saloon designs which strive so hard to sail better, they give away the upright wheelhouse benefits.
I would apologise again for perpetuating the LM27 drift, except I think everyone reading this is as keen on the design as me! :encouragement:
I'd never looked very hard at the LM27 till lately - I think I preferred the trawler-style motorsailers and sleeker deck-saloon designs which strive so hard to sail better, they give away the upright wheelhouse benefits.
I would apologise again for perpetuating the LM27 drift, except I think everyone reading this is as keen on the design as me! :encouragement:
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I think he's sitting on the galley! My LM27 has a wooden cover that can fit over the sink and cooker, and I've heard of others that have similar and made a cushion to place on top of that. (I now see that Oldmanofthehills had subsequently mentioned that arrangement.)
Alternatively, as someone has mentioned, the Scanyacht 290 version had an option of a bigger galley, along one side of the saloon (at the cost on one of the berths), with a second (and forward facing) seat in the wheelhouse. This could be done as a retrofit, if anyone was sufficiently bothered. Lack of a second seat in the wheelhouse has hardly ever been an issue for me.
I think the LM32 may have two seats in the wheelhouse, as well as the galley.
I sometimes stand in the centre of the wheelhouse (by choice), and steer the wheel with my right hand (unless on autopilot).
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LittleSister
Well-Known Member
The rigging on my LM27 is 5mm. I don't know if that is standard.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
All that Stevie and Ahoy have said chimes with my experience, except I have only failed to tack a couple of times, and then only when not paying attention for some reason.
The somewhat restricted forward visibility (especially with an enclosed back, rather than the original open design, to the wheelhouse) is the only feature I can think of that irks me at all.
Definitely agree with Stevie's statement 'The standard of fibreglass lay up and the carpentry is excellent and the interior on mine has quite a cool 70's Scandi vibe going on . . .'
There's definitely a certain something (what's Danish for 'je ne said quoi'?) going on with them that gives me a good feeling. They feel quite different to the Brit offerings of the era (not that I'm knocking those), and have lots of really thoughtful little design features, some of which take a while to notice and appreciate.
The somewhat restricted forward visibility (especially with an enclosed back, rather than the original open design, to the wheelhouse) is the only feature I can think of that irks me at all.
Definitely agree with Stevie's statement 'The standard of fibreglass lay up and the carpentry is excellent and the interior on mine has quite a cool 70's Scandi vibe going on . . .'
There's definitely a certain something (what's Danish for 'je ne said quoi'?) going on with them that gives me a good feeling. They feel quite different to the Brit offerings of the era (not that I'm knocking those), and have lots of really thoughtful little design features, some of which take a while to notice and appreciate.
stevie69p
Well-Known Member
One of the cockpit cushions happens to be a perfect fit for over the galley worktop boards, and sometimes I will put that on and sit up there with the tiller pilot doing the steering. I mainly single-hand, so don't really have the need for a dedicated 'navigator's' seat, and unless it's raining or cold (which is actually quite a lot in Scotland!) I will helm from the cockpit, except when under manoeuvres berthing, etc.
They really are proper sturdy little boats; and I have just taken mine from the Clyde to the Isle of Man, then back via Ireland. Mine has the fully enclosed wheelhouse and she stays in the water all year round and in use. I would love one of the more modern versions, a 30 or 32, but the budget just isn't there for that.
They really are proper sturdy little boats; and I have just taken mine from the Clyde to the Isle of Man, then back via Ireland. Mine has the fully enclosed wheelhouse and she stays in the water all year round and in use. I would love one of the more modern versions, a 30 or 32, but the budget just isn't there for that.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Some form of weight-bearing cover and cushioning which converts the galley to an inward-facing sofa had struck me as a smart addition, especially if the helm/galley area has the rear doors, so it can become an upper-saloon. I've seen photos of a 27 with a much wider helm seat too, to make room for two there.
