Lithium Batteries

[Tranona]

"Look after them and you could get a lot of the performance and life for the fraction of the cost of LiFePO4."
This imho is probably the biggest driver personally to bite the bullet & get some lifepo4

On a cruising boat it's really not that easy to "look after them" with lead acid. (unless you have enough solar area like geem to land a small plane on, not an option for the rest of us poor cruisers ?)

Constant very small but real source of anxiety to get them really really back to 100% about at least once a week. Though so many cruisers are blissfully unaware & blame anyone but themselves when they trash another bank.?

LiFoPo4 gets rid of that hassle plus will suck up whatever you charge you throw at them, no more genny running first thing to let the solar have a day to really get a decent charge in when the sun ain't enough for whatever reason to cope on it's own.

Not connected up my 300Ah LiFePo4 yet , but the 2 x trojans stay as well. A little dc/dc converter off ebay will give them a bit of a boost now and them. ????

Post#50 gives a pretty good idea of the type of usage and a long way from yours!

However (apart from being a twin engined mobo,) it is typical of the vast majority of UK based cruising boats which do not need the features of lIthium. a problem with many advocates of lithium is they start from what lithium can potentially offer rather than what the user's actual requirements are. Of course "potential" is a key word as it is possible to change your usage (for example cooking by electric or other 240V appliances) if you do go lithium. This is exactly what the OP of this thread has done, but using AGMs with the predictable outcome. So his question is how to work out the best lithium solution.

 

[geem]

Where i am or kit onboard doesn't matter, the point is, not everyone needs Lithium or would genuinely benefit from fitting it.

If your post only relates to your personal decision to fit Lithium the above also doesn't matter though.

There is an increasing number of long distance cruising types fitting lithium, some doing it well. Some not. We know people eho just dropped in lithium batteries and have no idea what they are doing. Some of these batteries were really quite expensive. Nobody knows there is a temperature issue with lithium life expectancy.
We did some research on super yachts whilst in the Caribbean earlier this year. All the boats we looked at had lithium house banks. Even at this level of proffessionally installed equipment, some of the installations were poorly conceived. We also got to do some temperature monitoring of those lithium battery installations.
One super yacht had the batteries in the engine room. The temperature in the engine room was a constant 40degC due to the very high generator run hours. They were on their second set of lithium batteries and we suspect not far away from their third set. The boat is 10 years old.
Another super yacht had lithium installed when they swapped out the original AGMs. The batteries were not in the engine room but they were installed in unventilated battery boxes in the huge lazarette space. Temperature monitoring showed in the Caribbean in winter, these batteries were never dropping below 30degC and after charging would be up at 35degC. We know from testing data done in the UK that at a constant 35degC lithium battery life is approximately halved.
Lithium can achieve a high number of cycles in a well designed installation when kept at the correct temperature. Even over heated lithium batteries tend to out perform lead acid. if a Trojan battery manages 1000 cycles to 50% the lithium bank may do double that if subjected to the same kind of heat. In the UK climate over heating really isn't a problem. More likely that the lithium batteries would need heating pads.
For UK cruising, lead acid battery work well. My previous boat had Numax batteries for 8 years. When I sold it they were still going strong. That was a boat on a swinging mooring with solar and no shore power charging ever.
If I can get 4 years out of my Trojans in the Caribbean, I will be happy.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Completely agree. Not sure that even needs saying. ?
Sounds a bit like your six years could have been a very gentle life for the batteries if you won't share. If so that sounds like you're pushing a blanket "lead acid is fine" without even mentioning the mass of variables. Not helpful.

I have no problem sharing where i am, look to the left, see my name ? See where it says "location" ? See my signature, follow the link and it gives my location too. Also gives my phone number and a contact form. I have, many times, posted who i am, where i am, what i do, what my boat is, where it's kept and the equipment onboard, i don't post on here anonymously and i never have.

I'm also not pushing lead acid or anything else. Every boat is different and solutions will vary. I recommend what i feel is a good solution, on an individual basis. My advice here is free and unbiased, based on years of experience across many, many different boats in many different circumstances, rather than a sample of one.

 

[GHA]

I have no problem sharing where i am, look to the left, see my name ? See where it says "location" ? See my signature, follow the link and it gives my location too. Also gives my phone number and a contact form. I have, many times, posted who i am, where i am, what i do, what my boat is, where it's kept and the equipment onboard, i don't post on here anonymously and i never have.

I'm also not pushing lead acid or anything else. Every boat is different and solutions will vary. I recommend what i feel is a good solution, on an individual basis. My advice here is free and unbiased, based on years of experience across many, many different boats in many different circumstances, rather than a sample of one.

But none of that is relevant to your 6 years and still good trojans.
Saying that with no context is exactly like saying "my car gets 60mpg" without telling if that was 45mph on an empty road or stop start through a town.
Much more useful for everyone would be 6 years where? Anchored in the tropics? Up north hiding in a marina every winter?
Meaningless statement otherwise.

 

[Trident]

These threads seem to get as heated as the anchor debates

My 2 cents worth - I have fitted around 50 Lithium batteries this year alone for cruising boats - there is an advantage to weight on cats but really the only reason is that with solar charging you have a much quicker charge time without an absorb cycle and so can get more in to the bank in a day on a boat. For my off grid home its Lead Acid because space for panels and wind is unlimited and to cover all house needs including heating FLA batteries save a huge amount of money to have a huge bank - and I get lots of freebies from all the boats that swap to lithium. But these are two very different situations

For most long term cruisers I would say LifePo4 , installed properly is essential if you want to live off solar or wind. The sentiment is very much against generators now (I've been asked to remove two perfectly good ones that "came with the boat" by new owners this year) but if you have one and use it Lithium may not be as big a benefit.

I have not and would not, replace a single starter battery with lithium because its just a crazy thing to do. Expensive, unnecessary and not the ideal profile for most LifePo4 batteries anyway (I fully accept that other posters have other experiences with small motorcycle petrol engines ) but for a boat I just don't see it. Plus you keep a FLA for the starter and run the alternator to that with DCDC charger you save all the expense and worry of a damaged alternator - again I just don't see why people would want all the extra gear to protect the alternator in the event of the BMS disconnecting the battery just to get lithium on a starter. A nice small Red Flash lead acid battery is ideal if you have weight or space issues.

I would note that many people seem to accept that drop in means drop in - it doesn't and lots of threads here explain why. However, also a lot of people quote Marine HowTo expressing that no "drop in" battery is any good because the internal BMS aren't good enough etc. That's rather out of date now and Will Prowse has done a lot of testing of certain "drop in" makes and they can be as good and in fact cheaper than a well made DIY cell set up so the answer is research well, work out the needs for how you use the boat and choose accordingly.

 

[dankilb]

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

I was yes - sorry for the confusion! But I think my confirmation bias was triggered by the similar issues/questions around whether battery 'management' could be improved (as a workable alternative ahead of an expensive lithium conversion - or perhaps until the cost of lithium comes down?).

I definitely second Geem and Paul's suggestion to combine the two domestic batteries into a single bank. That could mean less deep cycling of your first or '1' battery and, with the two batteries working together, longer life. AGM would suit this well. With simple monitoring, it should be possible to avoid a situation where you unexpectedly run out of power, without the need to hold a second battery as a backup.

With the DC-DC charger, paralleling two (AGM) house batteries into a single bank, and adding a decent monitor (if you don't have already) you should get years of service from AGMs worth a couple of hundred quid. When those batteries die, then lithium will hopefully be more widely/cheaply available and you could upgrade to that relatively simply.

I'm no expert (as opposed to to Paul, Geem, Poey, etc.) but there's always the question of whether lithium is really needed/beneficial as an upgrade, compared to AGMs. The premise of this thread began with AGMs not lasting as long as many on here report and so I guess that question, in turn, comes down to 'what's wrong with existing (LA/AGM) battery architecture?' (in terms of how we use/manage those)?

 

[DuncanHall]

Progress

I have a cost of Winston cells from Julia Yu. I took a quote for 8 300AH Winsrton cells and the cost delivered including all tax and duty is $2925. Just asuming the price scales lineraly then the equivalent 300AH wort of cells comes to about £1200 with no BMS. The 3 Heated Fogstar drift units (105AH each) with integral BMSs using EVE cells comes to £1287 .

I do recognise that the Winston cells are superior, but the EVE cells will probably outlast me for the type of use that I have. Furthermore the price is comparable to a new set of quality AGMs.

Its been a useful experience and the fact that the Victron units seem to have a place given that the 200AH unit has a much higher energy density and cannot be made from the cells that I can see on offer and can deliver a much greater current. One cell wit fit in the place of a single 110AH AGM.

 

[Poey50]

I would note that many people seem to accept that drop in means drop in - it doesn't and lots of threads here explain why. However, also a lot of people quote Marine HowTo expressing that no "drop in" battery is any good because the internal BMS aren't good enough etc. That's rather out of date now and Will Prowse has done a lot of testing of certain "drop in" makes and they can be as good and in fact cheaper than a well made DIY cell set up so the answer is research well, work out the needs for how you use the boat and choose accordingly.

Rod Collins of Marine How To does recommend a couple of 'drop-ins' even in that article but also has been instrumental in setting up a Facebook Group for those using them - 'LiFePO4 Drop-in Batteries for Boats'. He's done a new article on his site. Personally I find the lead acid is dead idea too sweeping but, as ever, his stuff is an interesting read.

Drop-In LiFePo4- Be an Educated Consumer

 

[geem]

These threads seem to get as heated as the anchor debates

My 2 cents worth - I have fitted around 50 Lithium batteries this year alone for cruising boats - there is an advantage to weight on cats but really the only reason is that with solar charging you have a much quicker charge time without an absorb cycle and so can get more in to the bank in a day on a boat. For my off grid home its Lead Acid because space for panels and wind is unlimited and to cover all house needs including heating FLA batteries save a huge amount of money to have a huge bank - and I get lots of freebies from all the boats that swap to lithium. But these are two very different situations

For most long term cruisers I would say LifePo4 , installed properly is essential if you want to live off solar or wind. The sentiment is very much against generators now (I've been asked to remove two perfectly good ones that "came with the boat" by new owners this year) but if you have one and use it Lithium may not be as big a benefit.

I have not and would not, replace a single starter battery with lithium because its just a crazy thing to do. Expensive, unnecessary and not the ideal profile for most LifePo4 batteries anyway (I fully accept that other posters have other experiences with small motorcycle petrol engines ) but for a boat I just don't see it. Plus you keep a FLA for the starter and run the alternator to that with DCDC charger you save all the expense and worry of a damaged alternator - again I just don't see why people would want all the extra gear to protect the alternator in the event of the BMS disconnecting the battery just to get lithium on a starter. A nice small Red Flash lead acid battery is ideal if you have weight or space issues.

I would note that many people seem to accept that drop in means drop in - it doesn't and lots of threads here explain why. However, also a lot of people quote Marine HowTo expressing that no "drop in" battery is any good because the internal BMS aren't good enough etc. That's rather out of date now and Will Prowse has done a lot of testing of certain "drop in" makes and they can be as good and in fact cheaper than a well made DIY cell set up so the answer is research well, work out the needs for how you use the boat and choose accordingly.

With regard to drop in lithium. A friend recently had issues with his choice of lithium. Running large inverters for things like 220v watermakers and large windlass motor loads needs careful selection of drop in batteries. Having an internal battery BMS using FETS is not ideal. Anybody who has run
FET based inverters in the Tropics for a period of time with inductive loads can testify to their lack of reliability when loaded near their theoretical current limit and subject to constant heat. In my experience, switching these loads external to the BMS makes a lot of sense

 

[PaulRainbow]

But none of that is relevant to your 6 years and still good trojans.
Saying that with no context is exactly like saying "my car gets 60mpg" without telling if that was 45mph on an empty road or stop start through a town.

More like saying "you don't have to have an electric car, my diesel one works fine". If you want to use daft analogies.

Much more useful for everyone would be 6 years where? Anchored in the tropics? Up north hiding in a marina every winter?
Meaningless statement otherwise.

The statement doesn't need qualifying, it' simply to point out that boats can be used extensively without Lithium. I think most people already know that. Further detail would only be required if someone wanted to make a direct comparison between our individual circumstances.

 

[GHA]

More like saying "you don't have to have an electric car, my diesel one works fine". If you want to use daft analogies.



The statement doesn't need qualifying, it' simply to point out that boats can be used extensively without Lithium. I think most people already know that. Further detail would only be required if someone wanted to make a direct comparison between our individual circumstances.

Why are you so reticent to give any details whatsoever for your "6 years and fine" trojan statement.
Totally meaningless statement otherwise, not in the least bit helpful.
Strongly suggests you are being disingenuous to push an opinion.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Why are you so reticent to give any details whatsoever for your "6 years and fine" trojan statement.
Totally meaningless statement otherwise, not in the least bit helpful.
Strongly suggests you are being disingenuous to push an opinion.

Why are you so keen to know irrelevant detail in the context of my statement ?

It's enough to know that boats don not have to be fitted with Lithium batteries. In the majority if cases Lithium will be a waste of time and money. In some cases, they won't, it isn't an either or.

 

[Poey50]

I'm no expert (as opposed to to Paul, Geem, Poey, etc.)

By trade I'm a psychotherapist, so no expert when it comes to lithium. However, some people might need their heads examined before parting with thousands for dubious kit so ... could be useful.

 

[GHA]

Why are you so keen to know irrelevant detail in the context of my statement ?

Cos it's an utterly meaningless statement without context. Why say anything so vague?
Irrelevant? Don't buy for a second you really think that battery life is in no way effected by battery use.
For all anyone knows you lived in a marina for 6 years batteries on float then say no need for lithium I got 6 years out of trojans.
Just sounds like you're hiding something to push an opinion.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Cos it's an utterly meaningless statement without context. Why say anything so vague?
Irrelevant? Don't buy for a second you really think that battery life is in no way effected by battery use.
For all anyone knows you lived in a marina for 6 years batteries on float then say no need for lithium I got 6 years out of trojans.
Just sounds like you're hiding something to push an opinion.

What opinion would that be ?

That not everyone needs Lithium ?

 

[GHA]

What opinion would that be ?

That not everyone needs Lithium ?

Absolutely no idea. Why anyone would hide battery use after saying I got 6 years and they were fine.?
You really believe battery use has no impact on battery life?
Don't believe that for a moment,ludicrous statement.
No idea why you keep digging that hole you've got yourself in. ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Absolutely no idea. Why anyone would hide battery use after saying I got 6 years and they were fine.?
You really believe battery use has no impact on battery life?
Don't believe that for a moment,ludicrous statement.
No idea why you keep digging that hole you've got yourself in. ?

Did i say " battery use has no impact on battery life"

All i'm saying is that not everyone needs, or benefits from, Lithium batteries ?

Is that really so hard for you to grasp ?

 

[Trident]

I used Trojan 105s in the Med for 5 years full time and they were still going strong when I sold the boat

I've used Lithium for 3 years full time live aboard use in the UK and Europe and they have lost just 0.2% capacity in that time

Horses, courses

 

[Trident]

Of course everything will change soon with Sodium Iron Phosphate - cheaper, just as good as LiFePo4 and crucially can be made in the same machines in the same factories - but no child labour and environmental damage from Lithium mining and Sodium is cheap and plentiful

I thought I'd throw that in so people can argue some more

 

[PCUK]

Of course everything will change soon with Sodium Iron Phosphate - cheaper, just as good as LiFePo4 and crucially can be made in the same machines in the same factories - but no child labour and environmental damage from Lithium mining and Sodium is cheap and plentiful

I thought I'd throw that in so people can argue some more

. . . but can they be used for engine starting?