Trident
Well-known member
No but you can crumble them up on your chips for better flavour. . . but can they be used for engine starting?
Lithium Batteries
- Thread starter DuncanHall
- Start date
PCUK
Well-known member
Well that's me convinced!?
GHA
Well-known member
Poey50
Well-known member
I went through the same logic before opting for aluminium cased cells for 1/3 cost of Winstons. If I was 20 years younger then maybe but I doubt my boys would want to inherit them.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Where did i say " battery use has no impact on battery life"
Good to see that your time away from the forums hasn't made you any more pleasant.
Any chance you could put me back on ignore please ?
GHA
Well-known member
Come off it - you said a meaningless statement like it meant something and now point blank refuse to back down.
"The statement doesn't need qualifying,"
It absolutely does.
Keep digging , your reputation online, not mine ?
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Where did i say " battery use has no impact on battery life"
I did say "Lithium is not the best solution for every boat out there. I lived aboard a 10m cruising boat for over six years with a bank of 4xT105s and 200w of solar. Batteries still good when i sold the boat recently. "
Pretty much the same as post #98
I'm not worried about anything you say affecting my reputation, readers of this forum tend to be a little more astute than you give them credit for.
Kelpie
Well-known member
I'm a bit late to this thread and don't have time to read all of it. So a very quick 2p from me:
I assembled a 271Ah lithium battery for under £500 and have been using it very happily for over a year as a full time liveaboard. I used cheap cells from Alibaba and a basic FET based BMS.
I do not have alternator charging, it is solar only.
For me, this system was lower cost than the Trojan back I originally budgeted for.
Until recently I only used it to power non critical systems- fridge, freezer, inverter, most of the cabin lights. I left a few cabin lights and all of the nav gear on the lead acid system, which has its own solar panels and can be charged from the alternator.
Recently I made a modificaron to allow the nav gear to be run from the lithium. I have two keyed isolators, one for each bank. You have to turn one off, remove the key, then turn the other bank on. So it's impossible to run the lead acid and lithium in parallel. Obviously you lose autopilot etc for a few seconds during the change. I like having two completely separate systems, I think it is a safety feature.
I assembled a 271Ah lithium battery for under £500 and have been using it very happily for over a year as a full time liveaboard. I used cheap cells from Alibaba and a basic FET based BMS.
I do not have alternator charging, it is solar only.
For me, this system was lower cost than the Trojan back I originally budgeted for.
Until recently I only used it to power non critical systems- fridge, freezer, inverter, most of the cabin lights. I left a few cabin lights and all of the nav gear on the lead acid system, which has its own solar panels and can be charged from the alternator.
Recently I made a modificaron to allow the nav gear to be run from the lithium. I have two keyed isolators, one for each bank. You have to turn one off, remove the key, then turn the other bank on. So it's impossible to run the lead acid and lithium in parallel. Obviously you lose autopilot etc for a few seconds during the change. I like having two completely separate systems, I think it is a safety feature.
Zing
Well-known member
That's a similar modification that I am envisaging. My pack is in 4 parallel banks of 8. I have one BMS for the lot, but I could simply fit an extra BMS or 2 or 3 even going to contactors isolating each bank and have redundancy so that if a cell goes down in a bank I will not lose the system. Unlikely to happen anyway as if one cell went down you would isolate it and rewire quite easily, but that would take hours at a time when it might not be safe to do. With multiple redundancy I could also ditch the engine start battery, which would be a nice bonus.
Alex_Blackwood
Well-known member
Poey50
Well-known member
Some members of the lithium ion family are volatile and, personally, I would never leave the boat with a lithium battery on charge and I would never cover a battery when charging except in a protective case (below). But with a single exception - LiFePO4 (LFP) - the most stable member of the family by a long way. Rod Collins has had a long-standing reward on offer for any verified evidence of damage to a boat or RV caused by thermal runaway in an LFP pack, rather than installation issues causing a short. It remains unclaimed.
For the myriad of small non-LFP Li-ion batteries we carry onboard - including mobile phones - these cases are useful when charging. I have several of different sizes.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omabeta-Carrying-Explosionproof-Fireproof-Protection/dp/B0B9T1LZRD/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1ACYE0SGUOHK4&keywords=Lithium+battery+protection+pouches&qid=1669803874&sprefix=lithium+battery+protection+pouches,aps,67&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
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Kelpie
Well-known member
That's about as relevant as saying you'd never go for radiotherapy because of Hiroshima.
kwb78
Member
Lithium Titanate Oxide are similarly safe, and probably more so even than LiFePo4, because they don’t really suffer from thermal runaway at all. They also can be used for very large charge and discharge currents without damage and have a much longer cycle life than LiFePo4. The downsides are that they are quite a lot more expensive, have lower energy density and have an awkward cell voltage for 12V applications. That makes them less ideal for a house battery, but might be a good option for other more demanding applications like running a thruster. It’s probably not worth the cost for most uses on a boat though.
People like to make a fuss about battery safety, but they forget that there is risk wherever energy is stored at high density, and safety mainly comes down to appropriate use - I wonder how many people that comment about the dangers of lithium batteries don’t think twice about carrying petrol in a can or using propane for cooking.
Poey50
Well-known member
I thought there were some doubts about LTO under certain conditions but GWL certainly market them as safe as LFP. Although, as you say, they aren't friendly for 12 volt systems and don't have other redeeming features including cost. GWL torture video below.
I totally agree about other fuel sources and it was recently a relief to be able to give up storing petrol aboard when switching to an electric outboard.
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Alex_Blackwood
Well-known member
Some people have experience of materials and substances far more hazardous than those mentioned. The do not necessarily find it irrelevant to highlight possible and well documented hazards with any substance, material, component or installation. However we do all have our own opinions.
geem
Well-known member
Wait until you get to the Caribbean and see if you are still happy with an electric outboard.
The distances between you anchored boat and the dinghy dock can be up to a mile. The water is often choppy and you get regular squalls with heavy rain. When we first came to the Caribbean nearly 20 years ago, we had a small deflatable and a 3.5hp engine. You soon get sick of being soaked when going out to a restaurant in the evening in your finest.
Even worse with 3 or 4 people in the dinghy.
I can't imagine not having a good dinghy and 15hp 2 stroke here.
Poey50
Well-known member
Sadly, I'm not going to the Caribbean, but I take your point.
Trident
Well-known member
This is one of my big concerns for next year - we have a good hard pram style dingy that doesn't seem to ship water whatever we do to it but only an electric outboard - wired to a 50AH LifePo4 - cos they're waterproof (in the case this one comes in) and nice and safe - which should give 3-4 hours at 2-3 knots BUT it slows down a lot in to a wind or chop ...
Trident
Well-known member
True but with boats we only ever talk about LifePo4 when we say Lithium - and LifePo4 doesn't explode or catch fire or much else - its a very safe chemistry but still some are scared off by the general 'lithium" badge and out of date informationSome people have experience of materials and substances far more hazardous than those mentioned. The do not necessarily find it irrelevant to highlight possible and well documented hazards with any substance, material, component or installation. However we do all have our own opinions.
Kelpie
Well-known member
We're in the same sort of position.
We have an 11ft rigid nesting dinghy which has, so far, been absolutely great. The 3.5hp 2 stroke moves it along at about 5.5kt fully loaded, and I can row it at over 4kt. In our first year we used less than ten litres of petrol because we row the majority of the time.
We're about to set off for the Caribbean and I'm worried that the current setup will prove very limiting. We could try a slightly bigger motor, but we might also keep an eye open for a suitable secondhand RIB.
Trying to return to topic, we did used to use a trolling motor and a 60Ah LFP battery. It was cheap, convenient, and silent, but we've found that when we're in a hurry or going a long distance we use the petrol outboard, and the rest of the time we row. So it doesn't really have a purpose. And the build quality of a trolling motor is just not up to daily use at sea.
