Lithium Batteries

[Tranona]

I think we’ve found out why…

Not sure how you come to this conclusion as nowhere does he say anything about splitting the bank. Pretty clear that he is deeply discharging his bank by running heavy loads through an inverter. See post#9. For his high usage pattern lithium is worth considering

 

[dankilb]

Not sure how you come to this conclusion as nowhere does he say anything about splitting the bank. Pretty clear that he is deeply discharging his bank by running heavy loads through an inverter. See post#9. For his high usage pattern lithium is worth considering

Absolutely right - posters confused - will edit now. Thanks T.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks Paul, so is the set-up as mentioned above the right way to go? Obviously if that's the case then I'll go with the single larger house battery.

Your DC-DC charger is OK for charging from the alternator, as you described. Two small batteries or one larger one doesn't make much difference, other than convenience (space to fit etc) or if it works out cheaper.

There's a lot more to fitting Lithium though and it's not an advantage in many cases. Not sure what other plans you have, sorry if i've missed that in this thread.

 

[Zing]

So which battery can I buy at what cost to start my 4.4 litre engine. Hypothetical question since I dont want one and have already replaced the batteries for a shade over £200.
I am not Interested in saving weight or Introducing more electronics into the equation or reengineering my charging system or introducing a smart alternator regulator.
If I go lithium house bank in the future I would still keep my lead acid starter batteries and use a couple B2B chargers to charge from the alternator via the starter batteries if I ever needed to.

I thought that was done to death in your thread.…

You will go to lithium house and starter batteries eventually. It’s as inevitable as the disappearance of the steam engine or of the abacus. I’m sure you will join the party when it makes sense to you.

 

[geem]

I thought that was done to death in your thread.…

You will go to lithium house and starter batteries eventually. It’s as inevitable as the disappearance of the steam engine or of the abacus. I’m sure you will join the party when it makes sense to you.

I will go to liquid cooled lithium maybe next year simply because we have some prototypes that I can test and my £500 worth of T105s will be 4 years old and likely reaching the end of their useful life. They have suffered heat damage whist the boat is laid up in Curacao for the summer a couple of times.
I can't see myself ever installing lithiumm fof starting my diesel engine. It makes no sense

 

[Osmosis]

Lithium appears to be all the rage.
I would first of all consult with a professional trades person or company including your insurers.
DIY saves money at the outset but in the long run?

 

[Stemar]

I'm no more than an interested onlooker, as my set up with Pb batteries and a couple of solar panels is entirely adequate for my needs for the foreseeable future, but ISTM that there are a number of problems with the raw materials for lithium batteries, not least the scarcity of some of them, so there are a lot of people working very hard to come up with the Next Big Thing. Give it a year or two and will we be getting hot under the collar about the benefits of aluminium or sodium batteries over Lithium?

 

[Poey50]

Lithium appears to be all the rage.
I would first of all consult with a professional trades person or company including your insurers.
DIY saves money at the outset but in the long run?

Any installation, including drop-in Lithium, is DIY. Starting with bare cells adds little to the overall complexity and gives design flexibility to avoid a number of other issues that come with drop-ins. That said, your point about insurers is an important one. Insurers may hear 'lithium' and assume your asset may soon disappear in a fire-ball since they are unlikely to distinguish generally safe LiFePO4 (LFP) from the more voltatile lithium ion chemistries that hit the news. Insurers will look to surveyor reports, and surveyors will look to published standards and quite possibly whether there has been a professional installation. Hopefully confidence in LFP will grow but, for the moment, the DIY installer would do well to have their system conform to emerging standards. The ABYC has done most work on this (Rod Collins being a prominent advisor) and technical advice TE13 has been issued. I've got some notes somewhere on this which I'll try to dig out.

 

[GHA]

I'm no more than an interested onlooker, as my set up with Pb batteries and a couple of solar panels is entirely adequate for my needs for the foreseeable future, but ISTM that there are a number of problems with the raw materials for lithium batteries, not least the scarcity of some of them, so there are a lot of people working very hard to come up with the Next Big Thing. Give it a year or two and will we be getting hot under the collar about the benefits of aluminium or sodium batteries over Lithium?

Same is said every year... and if so good incentive to buy lithium now, have all the benefits now for about a decade while the next tech slowly matures and trickles down to something we can get hold of.
And you already use loads of lithium batteries.?

 

[PCUK]

If I were @PCUK I would (have another) go with AGMs.

This time do the wiring, split charging and monitoring ‘properly’ (no disrespect) as per advice on here.

Look after them and you could get a lot of the performance and life for the fraction of the cost of LiFePO4.

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

 

[geem]

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

You don't want a dedicated fridge battery. You want one, ideally large, domestic battery bank that powers everything apart from the engine. The engine gets its own start battery.

 

[GHA]

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

"Look after them and you could get a lot of the performance and life for the fraction of the cost of LiFePO4."
This imho is probably the biggest driver personally to bite the bullet & get some lifepo4

On a cruising boat it's really not that easy to "look after them" with lead acid. (unless you have enough solar area like geem to land a small plane on, not an option for the rest of us poor cruisers ?)

Constant very small but real source of anxiety to get them really really back to 100% about at least once a week. Though so many cruisers are blissfully unaware & blame anyone but themselves when they trash another bank.?

LiFoPo4 gets rid of that hassle plus will suck up whatever you charge you throw at them, no more genny running first thing to let the solar have a day to really get a decent charge in when the sun ain't enough for whatever reason to cope on it's own.

Not connected up my 300Ah LiFePo4 yet , but the 2 x trojans stay as well. A little dc/dc converter off ebay will give them a bit of a boost now and them. ????

 

[Tranona]

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

Tried and tested lead acid or AGM suitably sized for the engine start. AGM bank suitably sized for all domestic loads. Separate circuits with a means of connecting house bank to engine starter circuit in an emergency. Split charging with a VSR or splitter. The major benefit of AGMs is typically twice the number of cycles for 30-50% price premium over leisure batteries.

The starting point for sizing bank is to calculate your typical consumption between charging such that you keep discharge to less than 50% nominal capacity. Doubt your consumption in a twin screw boat in "weekend" cruising mode and plugged into shorepower when not being used would justify Lithium. As you will see from these threads it starts to make sense on sailing boats where the intention is to spend long periods independent of shore and reliant on solar or wind for recharging. Then the extra capacity and rapid recharge rates start to make sense.

 

[PaulRainbow]

This would be my first time with anything other than lead acid so I think you are confusing me with the original poster. I'm happy to consider any alternatives so your comments about doing it properly with AGMs is iinteresting if you can expand on exactly what I need for a complete system. One engine star battery, one or more house batteries and one dedicated fridge battery. Chargers required etc. etc.

Can i suggest that you start a new thread ?

Would be useful to know the boat, where it's kept (marina, swinging mooring etc), charging systems (alternator, solar, shore power etc), your power requirements (fridge, plotter, autopilot etc). What's your pattern of usage, weekend sailing, weeks at anchor etc. Current battery layout

If you can provide as much information as possible it will help to give best suggestions.

 

[PaulRainbow]

"Look after them and you could get a lot of the performance and life for the fraction of the cost of LiFePO4."
This imho is probably the biggest driver personally to bite the bullet & get some lifepo4

On a cruising boat it's really not that easy to "look after them" with lead acid. (unless you have enough solar area like geem to land a small plane on, not an option for the rest of us poor cruisers ?)

Constant very small but real source of anxiety to get them really really back to 100% about at least once a week. Though so many cruisers are blissfully unaware & blame anyone but themselves when they trash another bank.?

LiFoPo4 gets rid of that hassle plus will suck up whatever you charge you throw at them, no more genny running first thing to let the solar have a day to really get a decent charge in when the sun ain't enough for whatever reason to cope on it's own.

Not connected up my 300Ah LiFePo4 yet , but the 2 x trojans stay as well. A little dc/dc converter off ebay will give them a bit of a boost now and them. ????

Typical "blanket" proposal.

Lithium is not the best solution for every boat out there. I lived aboard a 10m cruising boat for over six years with a bank of 4xT105s and 200w of solar. Batteries still good when i sold the boat recently.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Tried and tested lead acid or AGM suitably sized for the engine start. AGM bank suitably sized for all domestic loads. Separate circuits with a means of connecting house bank to engine starter circuit in an emergency. Split charging with a VSR or splitter. The major benefit of AGMs is typically twice the number of cycles for 30-50% price premium over leisure batteries.

The starting point for sizing bank is to calculate your typical consumption between charging such that you keep discharge to less than 50% nominal capacity. Doubt your consumption in a twin screw boat in "weekend" cruising mode and plugged into shorepower when not being used would justify Lithium. As you will see from these threads it starts to make sense on sailing boats where the intention is to spend long periods independent of shore and reliant on solar or wind for recharging. Then the extra capacity and rapid recharge rates start to make sense.

Nice, balanced post

 

[PCUK]

New thread it is then. Thanks everyone.

 

[GHA]

Typical "blanket" proposal.
Lithium is not the best solution for every boat out there. I lived aboard a 10m cruising boat for over six years with a bank of 4xT105s and 200w of solar. Batteries still good when i sold the boat recently.

Never said it was. Read again "biggest driver personally to bite..."
You don't give any details where you were or kit onboard, fridge consumption goes through the roof in the tropics. High temperature also dramatically reduces battery life. Was this 6 years constantly on the hook. like never having shore power?
Even in the tropics trojans should easily give you half a decade with just a bit of care. (my last 2 x t105 mut have been about 8 years old when they finally fell off the cliff & died, lot of that was in the tropics.
Every boat is a mass of compromises, cruising boats doubly so.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Never said it was. Read again "biggest driver personally to bite..."
You don't give any details where you were or kit onboard, fridge consumption goes through the roof in the tropics. High temperature also dramatically reduces battery life.
Even there trojans should easily give you half a decade with just a bit of care. (my last 2 x t105 mut have been about 8 years old when they finally died, lot of that was in the tropics.
Every boat is a mass of compromises, cruising boats doubly so.

Where i am or kit onboard doesn't matter, the point is, not everyone needs Lithium or would genuinely benefit from fitting it.

If your post only relates to your personal decision to fit Lithium the above also doesn't matter though.

 

[GHA]

Where i am or kit onboard doesn't matter, the point is, not everyone needs Lithium or would genuinely benefit from fitting it.

Completely agree. Not sure that even needs saying. ?
Sounds a bit like your six years could have been a very gentle life for the batteries if you won't share. If so that sounds like you're pushing a blanket "lead acid is fine" without even mentioning the mass of variables. Not helpful.