JimC
Well-known member
Can't do anything as need one hand to hold on.
Lines led to cockpit. What's the downside?
- Thread starter Simon F
- Start date
Can't do anything as need one hand to hold on.
pandos
Well-known member
I upgraded mine when I bought her in 2006. I installed two new self tailers, 2 sets of tripple clutches two 4 sheave organisers one U bolt and a few pulleys. I use two line reefing, a kicker and a main halyard back to the clutches. Some friction but minimal and I can raise my main most of the way without the winch...I find plenty of silicone or ptfe spray and some patience are key.
My boat is an of hr352 so I had the added complication of passing under a windscreen...
I don't understand the fear of friction which is not rocket science to overcome nor the need for speed....
Spanjaard
Active member
The riggers quoted me £700 for leading 2 reefs aft inc fitting clutches, blocks and organisers etc.
Additional £280 for a third reef.
Additional £225 for a triple clutch
This for a 28"
Spanjaard
Active member
Granny bars could be a solution while a good place where to store the fenders
halcyon
Well-known member
Changing sails is difficult from the cockpit, my boat came with a total of 8 sails, all used while crossing the Atlantic. I'm now running all lines to the cockpit, as I don't plan on that trip. Cost depends a lot on if you buy kit over a few years at the right price, or pay to have it supplied and fitted.
Brian
Brian
William_H
Well-known member
As said halyards that exit the mast well above deck can be easily handled at the mast. This especially the spin halyard. However you can also then have the halyards leading back to cockpit. Meaning for reefing etc you do it from the cockpit. The down side to leading halyards back is mostly the added friction. The advantages of halyards led back is far more obvious in the smaller boats where in strong winds it can be daunting to go forward. Not quite so bad in bigger boats. In my little 21fter all halyards etc go back to 4 small winches but yes especially when initially raining the main the halyard is pulled at the mast. (halyard exits about 1 m above deck. ol'will
geem
Well-known member
No granny bars?
Wing Mark
Well-known member
A lot of boats seem to have terrible friction in their basic systems. I am used to dinghies where everything is expected to work properly.
The 'need for speed'?
If you sail anywhere crowded or with shifty winds, the ability to get a sail up or down quickly makes a big difference.
I see some yachts taking ages to hoist the main, meanwhile getting in everybody's way.
Setting or dowsing a spinnaker is almost always best done quickly, the halfway stage is often not pretty.
I've looked at a few boats lately, many seem to have things which have gone stiff over time, others have equipment which looks to never have been properly sorted out.
'Back to the cockpit' is more significant one way or the other, now that a sprayhood is pretty much standard.
You're either one side of it or the other.
It's a big awkward thing to get around if the boat is getting lively.
I used to sail on boats where the space is more or less continuous from cockpit to mast.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Getting up on deck, getting past the spray hood , if you have one. Ducking under a swinging boom Standing on the cabin top & maintaining balance whilst holding mast or shroud to stop one going overboard in a choppy sea. Running back aft when the autopilot does not do what it should ( regular with an AV100) or when another boat comes near ( They seem to get attracted like moths round a light if they see a SH sailor struggling on deck) Trying to pull the sail up & not drop the winch handle in the oggin. Trying to cleat off, having to go forward to reef with not enough winches to get the reefs really tight because the jib & main are on the only 2 winches that are available are used.( Unlike cabin ones that can have the lines disconnected & swopped over) Having to go forward to do tweeks on the halyards when sailing to trim sails ( I adjust my halyards often when sailing) having to go forward often to adjust kicker so risk life & limb. Having to unhook the genoa sheet when one hooks round the winch on the mast during a tack. Happens at least once on a long sail. having to coil ropes with 2 hands & being unable to hold on to anything whilst you are doing it.
The whole act of having lines at the mast seems absolutely silly to me. My first 2 boats had that & my current boat was a revelation when I found everything in the cockpit.
I have an option of 26 different controls there & line do not get in the way they just get coiled & hung on barton line hooks.
As for friction- I have decent blocks. Lines & sheets get looked after & changed regularly. Winches & pullies are serviced & if anything even looks like causing issues, I just deal with it or change it. Why not?
doug748
Well-known member
Here are two serious sailors chatting about it:
.
.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I was asked why I do not have one. i replied that if I wanted to go camping I would buy a campervan. I see the sprayhood as a dangerous obstruction to moving forward. i went on a friends 40ft Jeneau & winching the cabin top winches was really awkward as one had to do it bent double. Going below was difficult to get under it. The helm had to stand at the wheel all the time.
I have been on a Hanse 445 & whilst I have not sailed it I have had difficulty getting under it & past it on deck. Most stupid things second only to an umbrella.
duncan99210
Well-known member
I can do everything from the cockpit except hoisting the cruising chute. And I wouldn’t change it. Indeed, if I decide to keep the Hurley 18 for another year, I may lead all her lines back.
Why? Because it keeps me in the cockpit. There’s usually 2 of us but it so much simpler working the sails from one place as opposed to haring up and down the decks to and from the mast. Why would I want to clamber out of the cockpit, get to the shrouds, climb onto the cabin roof to the mast, haul up a sail before returning to the cockpit to trim the sail and steer the boat? I can just pull on the halyard and get the main up, trim it and return to helming the boat.
I get that if you are racing then it’s a different set of equations: you need speed and flexibility, changing sails and reefing all done at the rush with crew members dedicated to that job. I’m not in that business, it’s 2 of us looking for pleasant, relaxed, safe cruising and that, to my mind, means leaving the cockpit as little as possible.
Why? Because it keeps me in the cockpit. There’s usually 2 of us but it so much simpler working the sails from one place as opposed to haring up and down the decks to and from the mast. Why would I want to clamber out of the cockpit, get to the shrouds, climb onto the cabin roof to the mast, haul up a sail before returning to the cockpit to trim the sail and steer the boat? I can just pull on the halyard and get the main up, trim it and return to helming the boat.
I get that if you are racing then it’s a different set of equations: you need speed and flexibility, changing sails and reefing all done at the rush with crew members dedicated to that job. I’m not in that business, it’s 2 of us looking for pleasant, relaxed, safe cruising and that, to my mind, means leaving the cockpit as little as possible.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I find that both systems are fine, all cockpit and all mast, with no advantages or disadvantages for each beyond nit picking. The friction issue is just poor design and exists on both at mast and in cockpit systems - sort out friction, its your Achilles heal.
As usual, it's all about understanding and technique. If you know how to use the system, have practised it and are confident in the method that you adopt, both are easy. I reef single handed at the mast, in less than a couple of minutes. On the yachts I have sailed with all aft stuff, much the same.
Regarding security. At the mast I stand in front of the mast working halyard, spectacles and topping lift, so it doesn't matter what side the boat is leaning and my granny bars are redundant; good foot grip is essential. The boom clutches and reefing pennant winch is always used on my knees, so very stable position. In cockpit, bracing if using windward clutches and winches can be more problematic on more traditional hull shapes. I assume on wider stern boats, where form stability is high, that is less of an issue.
Messy Lines. Learn how to coil and hang multiple lines from a single winch. It should be bread and butter for anyone with cockpit line handling systems; messy lines is just lazy.
As usual, it's all about understanding and technique. If you know how to use the system, have practised it and are confident in the method that you adopt, both are easy. I reef single handed at the mast, in less than a couple of minutes. On the yachts I have sailed with all aft stuff, much the same.
Regarding security. At the mast I stand in front of the mast working halyard, spectacles and topping lift, so it doesn't matter what side the boat is leaning and my granny bars are redundant; good foot grip is essential. The boom clutches and reefing pennant winch is always used on my knees, so very stable position. In cockpit, bracing if using windward clutches and winches can be more problematic on more traditional hull shapes. I assume on wider stern boats, where form stability is high, that is less of an issue.
Messy Lines. Learn how to coil and hang multiple lines from a single winch. It should be bread and butter for anyone with cockpit line handling systems; messy lines is just lazy.
Last edited by a moderator:
pandos
Well-known member
I always hated them for the reasons you outline... But then I put one up which I was given by a friend...the transformation was instant... No rain coming down the companionway. Somewhere to sit in the and read a book whilst motoring in the rain... Somewhere to put throw the LJ and bits and pieces at night and not have them covered in dew...
This year I may even make a solid dodger/sprayhood which will provide handholds for going forward...
I have a center cockpit with a boom at face height so standing at the helm is difficult anyway...I have no cabintop winches, mine are all located with clutches and Genoa winches along the coamings so there is always a spare winch on each side which can be used for reefing.
geem
Well-known member
You have the wrong boat??
Wing Mark
Well-known member
I don't think the friction is always 'poor design' often it accumulates as things age.
Rope gets stiffer for one thing!
Tranona
Well-known member
Agree. Astonishing the difference putting running rigging through the washing machine makes.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Your talking about lack of maintenance, change out the stiff rope for new rope, clean the mast slots, lubricate clutch cams, service winches, for example. Do you just live with a lack of maintenance and replacement? Lack of maintenance is not poor design but can make good design perform poorly.
My experience. This year due to low usage and access because of Covid, I could not raise my FB main by myself. Once I serviced everything, back to easy hoisting again. One problem area was the clutch cams. The clutch released okay, but the cam still applied sufficient pressure to notice. A good wash in fresh water, air dry and lubricate via a nozzle to focus the spray, allowed the cam to fully retract. The difference was incredible.
dunedin
Well-known member
Easer / better with ropes led back for a whole raft of reasons, particularly when sailing short handed:
- ropes closer to helm - safer if need to avoid other boats or pot buoys, easier to align sail with lazy jacks etc
- quicker - saves time not needing to clip on and go forward, also massively quicker to drop sail when needed
- dryer - rarely sail with oilskins and almost never boots, so can reef etc from spray hood - when go on deck in breeze often may get a wave which gets you wet
- safer - no need to leave cockpit, particularly important at night (and even experts like Taberly have died thinking they knew better and gone on deck without harness on)
So ropes at mast are workable, but like hank on jibs (vs furlers), technology has moved on and ropes led back are better in almost all respects (and doesn’t prevent using extra crew at mast to smoke halyards up in a race)
PS. Somebody on here keeps saying “but going on deck to do halyards is essential to keep in practice“, which is clearly nonsense - by this thinking, we should pull halyards up from masthead to keep in practice with going up the rig. I am happy to go forward when necessary, but prefer not to be forced to do so just to hoist, reef or drop sail.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Technology has moved on is a logical fallacy as sailing in itself is archaic.
