Lights and shapes when hove-to ?

[macd]

I'm embarrassed that folks don't know that they are "under way." You are also on which ever tack the wind is on.

Yes, it doesn't seem all that complicated, Thinwater:
Rule 3
General definitions
(i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.

 

[macd]

Quote Originally Posted by Baddox:
A slight thread hijack or another tangent.

What would the status of my boat be when I’m angling from a motorboat with the engine turned off? I’m underway but am I making way as I drift on wind and tide without sail or anchor.

You are underway but not making way. Making way is when you are being propelled through the water, not drifting with it.

...and you are, of course, absolutely not a vessel engaged in fishing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You are underway but not making way. Making way is when you are being propelled through the water, not drifting with it.

That would be true if you truly were stationary in the water.

All the boats I've sailed forereach slowly when hove to. It's a moot point though as even a large ship drifts with the wind slowly.

The key part of my statement is "propelled through the water", that's by sail, machinery or oars.

 

[macd]

The key part of my statement is "propelled through the water", that's by sail, machinery or oars.

As I daresay you're aware, 'underway' is clearly defined in ColRegs, but 'making way' is not. No doubt there's case law on the point. This is a clarification from http://navruleshandbook.com/Rule3.html

"Underway" should be distinguished from the phrases "making way through the water" (used in Rules 26, 27, and 35) and "making no way through the water" (used in Rule 35). A vessel that is "underway" need not be moving through the water but may simply be not anchored, aground, or made fast to the shore. If a vessel is making no way through the water, it is stopped and drifting, unless it is not underway. If it is moving relative to the water, it is making way. For example, if a ship is headed up a river, making five knots through the water, and there is a five-knot current against it, then it is making wat through the water even though it is making no progress relative to the shore. Another ship drifting down the river is not making way, even though it is moving much faster over the bottom.

I suppose there may other definitions, but this certainly seems to support yours.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Quote Originally Posted by Baddox:
A slight thread hijack or another tangent.

What would the status of my boat be when I’m angling from a motorboat with the engine turned off? I’m underway but am I making way as I drift on wind and tide without sail or anchor.



...and you are, of course, absolutely not a vessel engaged in fishing.

Exactly. It's one of the questions I often ask YM candidates. ("If you put a line out to catch mackerel, does that make you a fishing vessel within the rules of IRPCS?")

It's all in the rules if you read them.

 

[SiteSurfer]

Thats why traditionally the main halyard ( which you might wnat to access to reef) is on the staboard side . Also why the galley ( and the heads ) is best located on the port side

Amazing what snippets come out of this forum, never knew this - and it absolutely makes sense of some configurations now!

 

[[163233]]

Exactly. It's one of the questions I often ask YM candidates. ("If you put a line out to catch mackerel, does that make you a fishing vessel within the rules of IRPCS?")

It's all in the rules if you read them.

What if it's a couple of hundred metres long with a thousand hooks?

 

[Uricanejack]

What if it's a couple of hundred metres long with a thousand hooks?

No still not a vessel engaged in fishing.

 

[[163233]]

No still not a vessel engaged in fishing.

No, but it's funny how it excludes the proper long-line boats who may still be restricted with all that line out the back and may still be a hazard..

 

[macd]

No, but it's funny how it excludes the proper long-line boats who may still be restricted with all that line out the back and may still be a hazard..

But does it necessarily exclude them?
Rule 3 (d)
The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.

So the test is a pragmatic one: the effect of the gear on manoeuvrability, not the nature of the gear.
If it hampers manoeuvrability to an undefined critical degree, surely the vessel is 'engaged in fishing'?

(The rule can be read, superficially, as meaning that trolling lines and other fishing apparatus do not 'qualify'. But how can any rule logically state that some undefined 'other fishing apparatus', which could be the size of the Albert Hall, does not qualify? And lines and 'other fishing apparatus' have already been stated to qualify, if they restrict manoeuvrability, in the preceding sentence.)

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

I'm embarrassed that folks don't know that they are "under way." You are also on which ever tack the wind is on.

If sails are not up you are a power vessel (this came up in a local accident--guy drifted across a channel, paying no attention--power boat grounded avoiding him--determination was divided fault).

Simple.

VicS, in post no 3 said that it is advisable to heave to on starboard tack so that you have right of way (over other sailing vessels). Hence,if because of the wind direction, you are sailing on port tack, then you should heave -to by going about, while leaving the headsail cleated. If you are already on starboard tack you simply fully ease the mainsail and pass the clew of the headsail across, in both cases positioning the rudder as suits your boat's heaving-to abilities.
Regarding the original topic; sailing yachts are generally equipped only with lights and shapes to indicate Making Way, Anchored (+Aground), and Motoring. A yacht hove-to is neither Anchored, (Aground), nor Motoring , so it must be, by a process of elimination, be Making Way and should show lights or shapes indicating that.

 

[[163233]]

But does it necessarily exclude them?

On re-reading you are indeed correct it seems jack and I are right dufuses as it should be obvious my boat is most definitely hindered by a towing a cable of hooks.

 

[john_morris_uk]

On re-reading you are indeed correct it seems jack and I are right dufuses as it should be obvious my boat is most definitely hindered by a towing a cable of hooks.

I look forward to hearing you argue your case in the subsequent court of inquiry.

 

[john_morris_uk]

No still not a vessel engaged in fishing.

No, but it's funny how it excludes the proper long-line boats who may still be restricted with all that line out the back and may still be a hazard..

The manoeuvrability is the test.

Normally a simple trolling line doesn't make you any less manoeuvrable but if it's big enough to severely restrict you then you are entitled to claim rights as a fishing vessel and put the appropriate shapes and lights up. The size of gear isn't specified because different boats will be hampered in different ways.

I don't understand the confusion over what seems to be a sensible and pragmatic rule and definition.

 

[macd]

The manoeuvrability is the test.

I don't understand the confusion over what seems to be a sensible and pragmatic rule and definition.

Absolutely.
I'd previously only had a cursory read Rule 3 (d) (see post #30) until provoked into greater diligence by this thread. It is clear that the test hangs completely on the fact of hampered manoeuvrability. This is in turn defined in 3 (g):
The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Which begs the question of what 'work' means or implies...

 

[[163233]]

The manoeuvrability is the test.

Normally a simple trolling line doesn't make you any less manoeuvrable but if it's big enough to severely restrict you then you are entitled to claim rights as a fishing vessel and put the appropriate shapes and lights up. The size of gear isn't specified because different boats will be hampered in different ways.

I don't understand the confusion over what seems to be a sensible and pragmatic rule and definition.

It's because rule 3 carries a rider saying that trolling lines don't count leaving it very subjective as to whether manoeuvrability is affected. That and of course we get repeatedly told that you don't count as a fishing boat as an amateur when actually from what you say you might well do.

Besides, if it's just manoeuvrability then why not just use RAM shapes/lights and why have different shapes and lights for different types of fishing. It's at least partly about the particular hazard that fishing boats present with gear hanging out the back.

It's interesting that you view it as an "entitlement".

 

[macd]

It's because rule 3 carries a rider saying that trolling lines don't count...

But the rule doesn't say trolling lines don't count. It says they might, or might not, which is why both John Morris and myself used the description 'pragmatic': "does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability. "

So if a particular trolling line restricts manoeuvrability (as defined by 3 (d)), it gives relief under the rule. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

 

[[163233]]

But the rule doesn't say trolling lines don't count. It says they might, or might not, which is why both John Morris and myself used the description 'pragmatic': "does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability. "

So if a particular trolling line restricts manoeuvrability (as defined by 3 (d)), it gives relief under the rule. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Nonetheless that is why it is confusing.

I also wonder about a huge boat towing a mile long floating fishing line with no problem manoeuvring because it's massive and fabulously powerful with those azimuth pods, is that not fishing then?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Nonetheless that is why it is confusing.

I also wonder about a huge boat towing a mile long floating fishing line with no problem manoeuvring because it's massive and fabulously powerful with those azimuth pods, is that not fishing then?

Firstly the pragmatic view would be that the whole thing is not easily manoeuvrable (even though the boat itself is) and I would expect the boat to show the appropriate lights and shapes. It would also be helpful to show lights indicating gear extended in a certain direction etc.

Secondly its NOTHING to do with amateur fisherman vs professional.

Years ago we used to trawl a small trawl net off a 22 foot sail boat with a tiny engine. (It was a real struggle and we never caught very much). In retrospect we should have put up the day shapes for a fishing vessel as we certainly couldn't manoeuvre easily.

 

[macd]

I also wonder about a huge boat towing a mile long floating fishing line with no problem manoeuvring because it's massive and fabulously powerful with those azimuth pods, is that not fishing then?

That would a vessel engaged in stupidity for which there are, I fear, neither lights nor shapes :ambivalence: