Lights and shapes when hove-to ?

[Serin]

Absolutely.
I'd previously only had a cursory read Rule 3 (d) (see post #30) until provoked into greater diligence by this thread. It is clear that the test hangs completely on the fact of hampered manoeuvrability. This is in turn defined in 3 (g):
The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Which begs the question of what 'work' means or implies...

I suspect that's the nub. Is the boat concerned a fishing vessel at work, or a leisure vessel that happens to have a line out?

 

[Serin]

V
Regarding the original topic; sailing yachts are generally equipped only with lights and shapes to indicate Making Way, Anchored (+Aground), and Motoring. A yacht hove-to is neither Anchored, (Aground), nor Motoring , so it must be, by a process of elimination, be Making Way and should show lights or shapes indicating that.

That's what I was taught long ago, There are no special concessions for a vessel hove to in the rules for lights or steering. Heaving to on the starboard tack makes it relatively unlikely that you will find yourself the give way boat in a potential collision situation, but if it does, you are a starboard tack sailing boat and should act as such.

 

[thinwater]

Now this one I don't know.

If a boat is tacking, it gives up rights until the tack is completed. Is a boat that is heaved to tacking? Every time I have seen it done, it is a prolonged stop in the middle of a tack. In a manner of speaking it makes sense, because although you are on starboard tack, like a boat that is tacking, you have intentionally hampered your ability to maneuver.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I suspect that's the nub. Is the boat concerned a fishing vessel at work, or a leisure vessel that happens to have a line out?

Working has nothing to do with it. Part time fisherman, fishing for fun, whatever your motives, the rules don't care.

 

[Serin]

Working has nothing to do with it. Part time fisherman, fishing for fun, whatever your motives, the rules don't care.

Well, I'm not going to argue with an examiner, but unless I see the lights or shapes that identify a fishing vessel, I'm going to assume the boat is subject to the ordinary rules. I doubt if any leisure vessels will be carrying the required lights and shapes and in getting on for 50 years worth a life on the oggin* this has never been an issue for me.

* Nearer 60 if you count dinghies........

Edited to add: Although I will exercise ordinary courtesy towards any boat with lines out - and even with nets fixed across a freeway but not attached to any boat, as I have recently done. Courtesy and common sense go far.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well, I'm not going to argue with an examiner, but unless I see the lights or shapes that identify a fishing vessel, I'm going to assume the boat is subject to the ordinary rules. I doubt if any leisure vessels will be carrying the required lights and shapes and in getting on for 50 years worth a life on the oggin* this has never been an issue for me.

* Nearer 60 if you count dinghies........

Edited to add: Although I will exercise ordinary courtesy towards any boat with lines out - and even with nets fixed across a freeway but not attached to any boat, as I have recently done. Courtesy and common sense go far.

I'm not sure what point you are making. I completely agree that unless the other vessel is showing lights or shapes to change its status it should get treated as another ordinary power (or sailing) vessel.

I also agree that pleasure boats don't normally carry day shapes or lights to indicate they are fishing, but they don't need to as trolling for mackerel with a couple of spinners doesn't count. (See rules quoted above).

I'm sure it's very thoughtful of you to keep well clear of boats that are obviously fishing but that isn't the point either.

The rules are very clear about when you should be telling other users you are a fishing vessel and whether you are doing it for fun or a living is irrelevant. It's all according to whether your vessel 'by reason of the gear etc is severely restricted in its ability to manoeuvre.

Most pleasure boats don't engage in the sort of fishing that restricts them so badly that they need to carry the shapes and therefore nobody bothers. I don't think the distinction is obscure in any way.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Regarding the original topic; sailing yachts are generally equipped only with lights and shapes to indicate Making Way, Anchored (+Aground), and Motoring. A yacht hove-to is neither Anchored, (Aground), nor Motoring , so it must be, by a process of elimination, be Making Way and should show lights or shapes indicating that.

That's incorrect. A sailboat has lights for "underway", "at anchor", "aground" or for when using the engine. There are no lights to indicate "making way". In fact, the majority of vessels don't have lights that are specific to "making way", only a few do.

There is no reason to use a process of elimination, she will be showing lights that indicate her status. (who knows, they might even be the right ones)

 

[Serin]

I'm not sure what point you are making. I completely agree that unless the other vessel is showing lights or shapes to change its status it should get treated as another ordinary power (or sailing) vessel.

I also agree that pleasure boats don't normally carry day shapes or lights to indicate they are fishing, but they don't need to as trolling for mackerel with a couple of spinners doesn't count. (See rules quoted above).

I think this is a bit of hair splitting. When I see a leisure boat doing a bit of fishing, or, indeed, a sea angling boat (that might be seen as earning its living) displaying the relevant lights or shapes, than I shall feel obliged by regulation and not only by normal courtesy, to keep clear. But in around 55 years of deep water and coastal sailing I have yet to see one. Incidentally, Tim Bartlett is pretty clear on this point.

Commercial fishing boats usually do display the signals. There are also a few "hobby" former commercial boats that may do so. I know two part timers - one (a sailing smack) supplies me with shrimps and the other with lovely fresh dabs and Dover soles. But its only purpose built boats that are likely to carry the kind of gear that restricts their ability to manoeuvre - the ones built to fish for a living. It's a fair proxy. And, of course, if and when I see a leisure boat displaying the signals I shall treat it accordingly. I'll keep my eyes peeled for one.

 

[lw395]

Now this one I don't know.

If a boat is tacking, it gives up rights until the tack is completed. Is a boat that is heaved to tacking? Every time I have seen it done, it is a prolonged stop in the middle of a tack. In a manner of speaking it makes sense, because although you are on starboard tack, like a boat that is tacking, you have intentionally hampered your ability to maneuver.

Is this supposed to be under racing rules or colregs?
Interestingly, the new racing tules for next year introduce a rule that a boat backing a sail keeps clear of one which isn't.
We quite often heave to between races in the dinghy, and RRS apply between the racing boats between races.

 

[macd]

Is this supposed to be under racing rules or colregs?

I'd be interested in the answer to that, too.
It may be a perfectly legitimate issue, but Colregs don't even mention tacking (or gybing), much less priority during the process. If anything, by my reading, priority would change at the instant the mainsail filled from the new side: not before, and not later. (Or possibly when the boom swung to the new side...it's a bit moot, especially if you don't have a boom or your main is in its bag...) I see nothing to suggest that priority plummets during the entire process.

 

[[163233]]

It's all according to whether your vessel 'by reason of the gear etc is severely restricted in its ability to manoeuvre.

Now that we've determined that I might have to show fishing shapes and lights. I'm wondering what scenario would warrant it.

How long a line would you expect a 27'er to have a problem with?
I think commercial swordfish boats trail about a kilometre probably on two booms, but they are of course very powerful boats.

A swordfish or even a largish pair of grumpy mackerel might seriously affect my boat. Now there's a thought, I might be fine trailing the lines, but once Moby is hooked I may then be unable to manoeuvre - should I hoist the shapes rapidly at that point?

 

[Kukri]

Funnily enough, this question crops up with really big ships.

There was a collision off a Chinese port two years ago between two large container ships, one Chinese and one Japanese.

The Chinese ship was stopped in the water, waiting for a berth, but had nothing wrong with her, and was showing NUC lights; the court was not impressed and said that she was under way.

Which leads us back to why the galley is to port and the main halyard is to starboard... as has been said, its so that you can heave to and keep right of way over other sailing vessels...