Lifting Keels/Shallow Draft Boats: Advantages and Disadvantages - Your Experiences

Rossynant

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Artic Warrior

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We have a 46ft Damien steel round bilge swing keel made in france,
(god that was a mouthfull),
It has a long stub for ballast that the keel swings down throu, draws 4ft up and 9ft down,
The stub reduces the sidesways issue when motoring which is good,
She dries out with beaching legs onto the stub and skeg, rudder is fixed and hung from the skeg top and bottom
The keel swings up into the seating arrangement so there is no tall keel box,
I couldnt afford an ovni 45,,,,,still doing the lottory hee hee !!
 

tyce

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Ric, where did you get the information that all Parkers have the ballast in the keel, that is incorrect, many are un ballasted such as the 27.
 

Mino

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Mino,

Firstly, I hope your recovery is speedy and you get back to a normal life soon.

Your Guadiana question - clearance under the bridge is between 19 & 21 meters, depending on who you speak to! Our air draft is around 17.5 meters and we have plenty of clearance. Thing to remember there for best clearance is not to wait for the flow to turn north, that happens about 2 hours after LW.

You mention steel boats. We have a lot in the yard around us, maybe 30 at a guess and all have rust streaks to greater or lesser extent. To keep them tidy needs constant touching up of any chips whereas a scratch in grp doesn't often show. They do of course have strength benefits.

I have avoided swing or lift keels just because I see them as an extra maintainance item and (after having two bilge keelers) went for the Scheel keel option. Our 38ft boat draws only 4'6" and there's no noticeable difference in performance to the deeper 5'6" version under normal sailing conditions. Going the outside route south, a lift keel certainly isn't needed.

Thanks very much for the good wishes and info. Good to know re. Guadiana. I had wondered about the chips/scratch issue, but steel, for me, still seems to be the best option. I find the solidity of it, and being able to cruise in icy waters, highly appealing.

And to everyone else who has posted a comment, all are appreciated. This is proving to be a very interesting thread for me and I'm glad I started it! ;)
 

Ric

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Our Ovni 395 has been around Spain and back through the canal du Midi. We love her as she is a very comfortable home, and a strong seaworthy boat. She sails brilliantly above a force 4, though below this agree she is not fast, so we motorsail if in a hurry. However she sits flat on a beach, we have dropped the keel right out, its easy. All controls are accessible through the table top, and after 7 years the pivot pin was as good as new.

In all these posts it depends what you want. If its a racer, forget an Ovni. However Jimmy Cornne of ARC fame has sailed around the world, and in the Arctic in one for years. There must be something good about them!l

Crikey if you need an F4 to sail then that very much limits the pleasure for sailing in the Med. My boat - a very moderate performance fin keeler - will sail very nicely at 4 knots in 5 knots of wind. Absolute bliss! But will equally survive in F8 if I have to. Beyond that, I agree, an Ovni might be better - bullet proof low profile rig, and with the centreboard up no keel to get rolled over! They are very solid, well built boats that would be high on my list for circumnavigations, but I wouldn't want one in the Med!

You might, however, enjoy reading JCs review of the Allures 45 - a "deriveur integral" with much superior hydrodynamics and SA/D ratio than the Ovnis.
http://www.allures.fr/presse.php?cat_id=40
 

Rossynant

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As the thread going into steel and arctic - Damien mentioned above was designed for arctic originally - another steel boat for this.
"Futuro".
Very roomy liveaboard cruiser. Many rig and interiour configuration possible. Designed for simple build (also amateur) in steel, aluminium possible. Can't dig out design sheets, somewhere in attic, but rather cheap to build custom.
They were made in deep keel and in keel/centreboard. Later - 0,9 m (3 feet) draft, 11,5 m LOD, 4 m beam, some 8 ton, 80 sqm sail area. Strong construction, prop and rudder well protected by a king of shallow longkeel.
There were 2-3 for sale lately IIRC. Worth considering. One was quite new, launched 2 years ago, nice; not sure if centerboard version though - asking some 50 k pounds.

Another - I heard she is intended for sale, centerboard, page contains description: http://www.czartery-jachtow.com.pl/jachty/futuro.htm
 
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maby

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Crikey if you need an F4 to sail then that very much limits the pleasure for sailing in the Med. My boat - a very moderate performance fin keeler - will sail very nicely at 4 knots in 5 knots of wind. Absolute bliss! But will equally survive in F8 if I have to. Beyond that, I agree, an Ovni might be better - bullet proof low profile rig, and with the centreboard up no keel to get rolled over! They are very solid, well built boats that would be high on my list for circumnavigations, but I wouldn't want one in the Med!

You might, however, enjoy reading JCs review of the Allures 45 - a "deriveur integral" with much superior hydrodynamics and SA/D ratio than the Ovnis.
http://www.allures.fr/presse.php?cat_id=40

Took a Feeling 39 out for a test sail yesterday and it was moving very nicely in about 12 knots true wind. Pointed as high as our deep keeler and was achieving speeds comparable to those I would have expected from her.
 

Ional

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Ric
That's why we came home, the Med was either calm or F8 the summer we were there, plus too hot and too many mozzies, and the W Med had so few places to comfortably anchor, even in Ibiza the nice places were jam-packed in June!. .......Whereas Plymouth across to W France is the ideal sailing ground for an Ovni. We do however move in under a F4. Our furling lightweight cruising shute works well but beating in light winds is a slower matter, hence the use of the engine if we are in a hurry.

Afraid an Allures is just too expensive now the Euro is strong again, we could not afford a new Ovni now either. Not that we want one. We are really happy with out choice!
 

mobeydick

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one thing to keep in mind - what does the hull sit on when grounded? A random rock can place huge point stresses on a hull. Which is partly why Southerlies have the grounding plate. Stub keels are OK I guess - apart from the clogging with mud issues. But if you have no grounding plate or stubb keel,....

MD
 

Bobobolinsky

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As raced in lift keelers and centreboarders would like to comment: much depends on design idea. And on mixing terms centreboard with Lift keel (for me centreboard, even ballasted, is centreboard).

On this I will say as Seajet:
Vertically lifted 'finkeel' boat may be lighter and more stable, simply because she may be given more draft then fixed keel - will lift the keel if needed. But i this idea is not for sailing shoal waters - keel must be kept down.
If such boat is designed to sail on shoal waters, then she needs stability with keel raised, hence ballast in the hull.
Those are two different design approaches.

When the board is not acting as ballast, then it's not a "keel", but centreboard, for me at least. And I can attest personally centreboarders may be fast :) only not much stability at big heel angles.
So when made as proper offshore boats, with good stability, then may be heavier, but not necessarily so if their draft "board up" is substantial, like 3-4 feet. Many successful racers were made this way in US, under CCA rulings.

For OP question - draft of 4 feet, say 120-130 cm is very convenient in Europe, also in Carribean - I'm not familiar with UK waters. This draft can be had in boats over 30 feet long. But 140 cm is more common.
My boat has 140 cm draft, in fact bit more and I would like to sail french canals, but have some doubts ;)
For drying out - she has legs.

Wishing You health and hope you will get better. I am coming back to sailing, after some two years spent mostly in horizontal position... so please, have hope.

P.S.
As for steel - not only better paints, but also better steel can be used today, quite resistant to rust. Even in old days more resistant, such as Cor-Ten was in use; this only is difficult to bend, but for simpler shapes, easy to plate on, was used with good result.
Now in Poland boat may be ordered also in stainless or aluminium, and this is even cheaper than normal steel (or fiberglass). Much less is spent on protective coatings which are costly and labor intensive. But such boats are mostly custom built.

I have to disagree about CorTen, it was originally an architectural steel designed to weather to an agreeable patina and never meant for boat building. In contact with other mild steels, it causes differential corrosion, is hard to bend and requires a low hydrogen process to weld, either 80K rods or mig process. In use it can over protect a boat and causes coatings to blow off in typically a rondel pattern. It may seem like a good material, but it has it's drawbacks.

I saw a Trusty 28 at the LIBS, very impressed. It would sip diesel with a 45HP motor and dry out with bilge keels. The one thing about lifting keels and liveaboards, is that the keel case takes up living space. If you can afford a cat, they have much greater living space, can be driven up a sandy beach and the fore boarding ladder dropped down for easy access. With twin engines, they are easier to con
 

Seajet

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Rossynant,

sorry to hear you have been unwell, hope you have a good re-entry...

Bobolinksy,

I think there's more to choosing the cat lifestyle than avoiding keel cases !

I wouldn't say a vertical lift keel allows a lighter keel, not if it has a ballast bulb on the end; that's surely more the case for boats over 26' where engineering a lift keel becomes difficult and / or expensive, so most designers go for a ballast stub and a relatively light centreboard working through it for grip to windward.

On my 22' lift keeler with a vertical lift keel and 9" deep 900lb cast iron ballast bulb on the end, she is self righting even with the keel raised, Bob Salmon sailed one across the Atlantic with the keel raised most of the time, but he's a braver man than me !

I'd think other boats with a ballast bulb such as the Seal 22 are similar in this respect.

However boats with internal ballast, a light fully retracting keel and no ballast bulb leaving a flush bottom would be a different proposition, for instance the E-Boat class website is commendably honest about the possibility of capsize and sinking if pushing ones' luck.

There is the theory that deep keels 'trip' boats in really big waves, as recounted in 'Heavy Weather Sailing', so I suppose if in a big boat with a stub ballast keel and light centreboard the idea would be to raise the board, if not clawing to windward...
 

distant shores

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Best of luck with your cruising plans! It sounds as if you might be visiting man of the places we have cruised of the last 3 years. Starting in the UK we went to holland and the Baltic, Sweden, the Gota Canal, and then the next year, Ireland, Scotland and Norway. Then last summer through the French Canals.

We have owned 2 Southerly Lifting Keel boats, a 42 and our current Southerly 49. Both are quite deep drafted with the keel down. Our Southerly 49 draws 10'3" - yes we draw over 10 feet - 3 meters! So they both sail quite well upwind. Also they sail quite well downwind. We did Atlantic Crossings with both boats and found that swinging the keel up partially is a great help to balance the sails. Our recent Atlantic crossing was just 15 and a half days - for relaxed cruising sailors we were very proud!

I would like to point out another advantage of a swing-keel like the Southerly. It allows us to explore in shallow water since the keel acts as a "safety-valve" to prevent us getting stuck. The Southerly keel just swings harmlessly up if you touch bottom.

Whenever we enter shallow water we set the keel to draw what we should need. For example, sailing the french canals last summer we set the keel to draw 1.4 to 1.5 meters. This meant that if we ever strayed out of the channel (say because we were trying to read the menu on a passing restaurant :) then we would run aground. The keel is very heavy (2 tons for the lifting part on our S49). This would slow us down and we would realize we had lost the channel. We then take stock and plan our new route, press the keel button and move back into the channel. This is a GREAT feature of any of the boats that can raise the keel, and that don't have any damage from grounding. We regularly sneak into places even shallow Cats wouldn't venture because they get stuck if they run aground. And cats are rare in many of the European destinations you are looking at since the dockage is expensive and more difficult to accommodate.

We did lots of quite detailed blogs on our European travels on our website here... including France, Holland, UK, Scandinavia
http://www.distantshores.ca/boatblog.php

Also we made more than 30 television episodes about sailing in Northern Europe and France with our Southerlies. Here's some pix from our Canal trip across France.
http://www.distantshores.ca/canals.html
Since you are interested in the Med we also made more than 50 episodes on the Med all the way from Gibraltar to Istanbul and Israel to Egypt, Croatia, Greece and Turkey. But these were with our previous 6 foot draft boat.
 
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Artic Warrior

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The only problem im finding with a lift keel,
is when our keel is up and she draws 1.2 mtr and we are anchored in shallow
is that a similar sized boat to ours of around 40 ft plus will rush up to anchor near us thinking its deep water,
and every time i have to go on deck and usher them away as its too shallow for them,
Bet they think im being rude and want the whole bay to myself,,,
One boat did it and ripped his rudder off,,,eeeek
I might make a big sign ,,,,,
 

distant shores

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The only problem im finding with a lift keel,
is when our keel is up and she draws 1.2 mtr and we are anchored in shallow
is that a similar sized boat to ours of around 40 ft plus will rush up to anchor near us thinking its deep water,
and every time i have to go on deck and usher them away as its too shallow for them,
Bet they think im being rude and want the whole bay to myself,,,
One boat did it and ripped his rudder off,,,eeeek
I might make a big sign ,,,,,

Yes we have this problem too!! Especially over here where Southerlies are not so well known.

Recently we were anchored in 1.3 meters in St Martin and a Island Packet 45 came up near us while waiting for the bridge. They went hard aground, we went to help but in the end the Gendarmes powerful RIB was used to tip them over by the mast. They missed the bridge...

I thought of a sign also but haven't done it :)
 

Artic Warrior

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Rossynant meantioned earlier about steel boats and that metal has come on a long way and is better now
and more resistant etc,,,
How come FORD have never found it then,,,


sorry Ford i do drive a TVR and yes they do break down
 

Artic Warrior

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A few people have said that a lift keel has no advantage in the med,
but what i have found is that as the ground drops of quickly in some places like Turkey,
its good to be that bit more shallow to allow a better scope for the chain,
even thou i run 80mtrs of 12mm, i try to achieve the 5:1 thingy me bob

Like in Cocek you go out a couple of boat lengths and the bottom disapears
 

geem

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Min,

I do wish you all the best with your health, it seems to get us when last minute we'd been sprightly...

As for lift keelers one thing I'd mention is keel maintainence; if a boat is kept ashore with the keel retracted the keel plate cannot be looked after and will suffer, eventually to a terminal point - for the boat or crew !

For this reason I keep my Anderson 22 on high trestles every winter, and I know someone who keeps his Southerly over a pit to allow lowering the keel.

As for larger lift keel boats think about rudder area and protection too; ( twin rudders are vulnerable as they're not behind a keel ) the sailors' choice of large lift keeler is the Ovni, but they aren't cheap !

There is a Southerley in a yard in Pwllheli with a smashed rudder and lots of damage to the hull from grounding on rocks. A new rudder was £2.5k plus installation costs. Those rudders look vulnerable and clearly are vulnerable. The owner didn't realise how extensive the damage was until he lifted out for the winter
 

Artic Warrior

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One problem ive come across with lift keels like with the southerly, having a flat bottom is with keel fully up
it tends to get blown sideways when motoring into a birth,
This i heard from a southerly owner who was in the canals, and he found it tricky sometimes,
Where some lift keels have a stub and i think this helps a bit.
 

distant shores

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You are correct the boat will be blown around with the keel all the way up, but then our 49 footer draws less than 3 feet!! With the Southerly you can easily set the keel to any height. I normally set it to draw 4 feet or so if I am doing shallow water maneuvering and it then has some keel down - basically what you would have with a keel-stub. Seems to be the best option.

Paul
 
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