Lifting Keels/Shallow Draft Boats: Advantages and Disadvantages - Your Experiences
- Thread starter Mino
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Mino
Member
Have been thinking the same thing: perhaps steel, (apparently with today's technology/current paint systems, especially on new builds , rust is less of a problem/more manageable) but with a 'middling' (pardon the nontechnical terminology!) draft, like Vvy's. The bilge keel version of the Sadler 34 only drew 4 feet apparently (for example); fin 5' 10". No such thing as an all-rounder, but I'm trying to get as near as.
Mino
Member
Thanks Seajet. Yup, I blame the decline of iron in cans of spinach.
I'm intending to live aboard, but your points are gratefully noted.
TQA
New member
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Sorry about a your health probs. I have a 44 ft cutter with a 3/4 full keel drawing 5'6" with a swing keel that increases draft to 9"+.
One issue is that you need a cooperative boatyard when it comes to gain access to the swing keel for scrape and af or any other reason.
One issue is that you need a cooperative boatyard when it comes to gain access to the swing keel for scrape and af or any other reason.
Mino
Member
Thanks very much TQA. As I'm intending to buy new, (or s/h direct from the manufacturer) I'm hoping that whatever manufacturer I end up dealing with will be able to point me to either a local dealer who offers various servicing/maintenance facilities (I probably won't be fit enough to do most work myself), or at an 'approved' yard. Failing that, I'll be asking for recommendations from other forumites here re. friendly yards wherever I happen to be at the time.
Ric
Well-known member
What lift keel boat do you have that goes well in light winds? Any lift keel boat with internal ballast is going to be heavy compared to a comparable fin keel boat of same LOA and righting moment (thus sail area). So if you have a lift keel boat that performs well in light airs, then it must per se have all its ballast in the centreboard - such as a Sirius or Parker.
Seajet
...
Nonsense,
who said lift keel boats have to have internal ballast or will be heavy ? The E-Boat goes well in light winds, for a start...
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Ric
Well-known member
What I said is not "nonsense", it is simple engineering design. For a given LOA, a boat that goes well in light winds will need a large righting moment to carry a large sail area, but a low weight to minimise displacement and thus wetted area. Taken to extremis, that means a deep bulb keel and clean semi elliptic sections when heeled.
Some lifting keel boats with all their ballast in the keel can get righting moments approaching that of a fin Keeler, but most don't get close, and have to carry a proportion of their ballast internally (egSoutherlies). Even lifting keel boats which have all their ballast in a moveable keel (egSirius) do not have such a clean underwater profile a fin Keeler, so will suffer in light winds.
On the other hand, other lifting keel boats have all their ballast internally, and lowering the centreboard makes no difference at all to the righting moment. this is the case with many French "Deriveurs Integrales" such as the Alubat Ovni. These boats cannot carry large sail plans, and are poor performers in light winds. However, they are very good trade wind boats as with the keel lifted they are longitudinally stable and the small sail area is not a problem. Their trade wind performance and safe internal ballast make them a very popular choice for TDM sailors
Rossynant
New member
As raced in lift keelers and centreboarders would like to comment: much depends on design idea. And on mixing terms centreboard with Lift keel (for me centreboard, even ballasted, is centreboard).
On this I will say as Seajet:
Vertically lifted 'finkeel' boat may be lighter and more stable, simply because she may be given more draft then fixed keel - will lift the keel if needed. But i this idea is not for sailing shoal waters - keel must be kept down.
If such boat is designed to sail on shoal waters, then she needs stability with keel raised, hence ballast in the hull.
Those are two different design approaches.
When the board is not acting as ballast, then it's not a "keel", but centreboard, for me at least. And I can attest personally centreboarders may be fast only not much stability at big heel angles.
So when made as proper offshore boats, with good stability, then may be heavier, but not necessarily so if their draft "board up" is substantial, like 3-4 feet. Many successful racers were made this way in US, under CCA rulings.
For OP question - draft of 4 feet, say 120-130 cm is very convenient in Europe, also in Carribean - I'm not familiar with UK waters. This draft can be had in boats over 30 feet long. But 140 cm is more common.
My boat has 140 cm draft, in fact bit more and I would like to sail french canals, but have some doubts
For drying out - she has legs.
Wishing You health and hope you will get better. I am coming back to sailing, after some two years spent mostly in horizontal position... so please, have hope.
P.S.
As for steel - not only better paints, but also better steel can be used today, quite resistant to rust. Even in old days more resistant, such as Cor-Ten was in use; this only is difficult to bend, but for simpler shapes, easy to plate on, was used with good result.
Now in Poland boat may be ordered also in stainless or aluminium, and this is even cheaper than normal steel (or fiberglass). Much less is spent on protective coatings which are costly and labor intensive. But such boats are mostly custom built.
On this I will say as Seajet:
Vertically lifted 'finkeel' boat may be lighter and more stable, simply because she may be given more draft then fixed keel - will lift the keel if needed. But i this idea is not for sailing shoal waters - keel must be kept down.
If such boat is designed to sail on shoal waters, then she needs stability with keel raised, hence ballast in the hull.
Those are two different design approaches.
When the board is not acting as ballast, then it's not a "keel", but centreboard, for me at least. And I can attest personally centreboarders may be fast
only not much stability at big heel angles. So when made as proper offshore boats, with good stability, then may be heavier, but not necessarily so if their draft "board up" is substantial, like 3-4 feet. Many successful racers were made this way in US, under CCA rulings.
For OP question - draft of 4 feet, say 120-130 cm is very convenient in Europe, also in Carribean - I'm not familiar with UK waters. This draft can be had in boats over 30 feet long. But 140 cm is more common.
My boat has 140 cm draft, in fact bit more and I would like to sail french canals, but have some doubts
For drying out - she has legs.
Wishing You health and hope you will get better. I am coming back to sailing, after some two years spent mostly in horizontal position... so please, have hope.
P.S.
As for steel - not only better paints, but also better steel can be used today, quite resistant to rust. Even in old days more resistant, such as Cor-Ten was in use; this only is difficult to bend, but for simpler shapes, easy to plate on, was used with good result.
Now in Poland boat may be ordered also in stainless or aluminium, and this is even cheaper than normal steel (or fiberglass). Much less is spent on protective coatings which are costly and labor intensive. But such boats are mostly custom built.
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ukmctc
New member
I have found the deeper the keel the steadier the boat.
Ric
Well-known member
For the OP, lifting keel is no advantage in the Med. My boat is a fin keeler with 1.5m draft and I have never been seriously inconvenienced. There are no opportunities to dry out.
Mino
Member
Thanks Rossynant. So you've been there, down that with the recumbent lifestyle and popping of painkillers every four hours, too. I trust you are back to full health. Good to read of someone who was in the same predicament but is now back sailing again.
Steel is becoming more and more appealing to me on a daily basis. For my needs, it has more advantages to it than disadvantages. Thanks for the reply. Very interesting read.
Mino
Member
Thanks. That is what I had suspected. Great to have all these different experiences and opinions here to read.
While I haven't completly abandoned a lifting keel yacht, it's currently 2nd in choice and I'm now veering more towards something around the 1.5m mark which I believe should give me a reasonably wide cruising area (the areas that Vyv mentioned I have wanted to explore more thoroughly as well for a while now) and with a steel hull. I like the idea of being able to winter in the UK or Holland, for example, should that appeal at the time, moor up a river/canal and not have to be concerned if we have a cold snap and the river freezes. Frankly, I quite like the idea of being surrounded by snow when living aboard, at least once. If you're snug and warm inside, are stocked up with supplies/water/fuel, etc., then one can't beat looking out onto a Winter landscape.
Grehan
Well-known member
Twopenneth.
Our Southerly 115 looked after us many times over the 8-9 years that we had her. We took advantage of the (hydraulically - press a button) lifting keel to beach her, cope with shallow waters and of course when travelling through the canals. Very reliable setup and massive cast iron keel and grounding plate. Sailing performance was certainly good enough for us, but we're not all-weather racers. Yes, when we got to the Med, eventually, the lifting keel capability became superfluous but nevertheless we have very fond memories.
An excellent boat, in our book.
Our Southerly 115 looked after us many times over the 8-9 years that we had her. We took advantage of the (hydraulically - press a button) lifting keel to beach her, cope with shallow waters and of course when travelling through the canals. Very reliable setup and massive cast iron keel and grounding plate. Sailing performance was certainly good enough for us, but we're not all-weather racers. Yes, when we got to the Med, eventually, the lifting keel capability became superfluous but nevertheless we have very fond memories.
An excellent boat, in our book.
Seajet
...
I suggest some folks look at their engineering and hydrodynamics, especially the terms 'wetted area' and 'frontal resistance'.
A lift keel can be the same ballast weight as a fin keel, just raisable; but above about 26' boats it becomes a serious and expensive engineering prospect, hence boats like Seal 28's, Dockrell 37's, etc with shallow ballast stubs and a lift keel ' grip on the water ' working through the middle.
A certain boat I know has a streamlined ballast bulb of 900lbs 4'6" down under a 2,500lb displacement hull, with a slim low drag keel plate, 7'7" beam so form stability too.
As some have mentioned, lift keels give the ability to travel the French Canals, handy in places like the River Frome too !
A lift keel can be the same ballast weight as a fin keel, just raisable; but above about 26' boats it becomes a serious and expensive engineering prospect, hence boats like Seal 28's, Dockrell 37's, etc with shallow ballast stubs and a lift keel ' grip on the water ' working through the middle.
A certain boat I know
has a streamlined ballast bulb of 900lbs 4'6" down under a 2,500lb displacement hull, with a slim low drag keel plate, 7'7" beam so form stability too.As some have mentioned, lift keels give the ability to travel the French Canals, handy in places like the River Frome too !
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sailorman
Well-known member
Gunfleet Yachts have a lift keel under construction for a Southerly owner
charles_reed
Active member
Let us part friends and agree to disagree.
Rossynant
New member
Well... Greetings from white, frozen Poland!
My personal ideal for shallow draft: buoyant hull in old style, V bottom, balanced - no needle sharp bows - with long keel, cut at forefoot, of some 3-4 feet; rudder attached. On shallow water attached rudder is more effective, not mentioning protection. Ballast spread low in keel, so in fact equals to most finkeels with 5 feet draft in leverage. This complimented with centreboard not ballasted, made of plywood. + second small centreboard aft, before the rudder, for balancing, especially in downwind. The idea was common long time ago, popular in USA.
Such boats were designed also recently, know one this type and liked her. She sails without the centerboard, only not so close-winded, but can be tacked up narrow canal with board raised - this is it!
Some were produced. For brits probably Trismus would be better known, close by. This one was from Gdańsk - under snow in Poland. She really can get anywhere:
http://les.trismus.free.fr/images/safranfinland/finbjorko0025.jpg ; her story: http://les.trismus.free.fr/wikinimst/wakka.php?wiki=JournalSafran2 You may contact the owners, they will probably be happy to chat about. Here: http://www.photovoyage.pl/index.php?lang=en&
Boats here:
http://les.trismus.free.fr/maina.html ;
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Oscarpop
New member
The other minor advantage to a lift keel is that you can get to shallow anchorages and thus not continually have to wrestle your way into the bussiest parts.
We had exactly the same question posed on here 2 years ago.
Went with southerly and never looked back.
Good luck
We had exactly the same question posed on here 2 years ago.
Went with southerly and never looked back.
Good luck
charles_reed
Active member
It is very difficult, when one is entrenched in a viewpoint, to admit you may be wrong and therefore a fool.
Now whilst I have sympathy with those who reckon a lift keel in the Med is a waste of time - I've found mine of considerable value 3 times in the Med and another 5 getting there.
If I were setting out to go to the Med now, with what I know (and using the scenic route not the canals) I'd probably not spend the considerable extra sum needed for a lift keeler.
As for those who try and justify their point of view by denigrating lift keel boats (and exposing their considerable lack of knowledge, possibly because of the catch-all nature of the nomenclature) I find them exasperating and somewhat pitiable.
It could be said that ALL shallow-draft boats and most fixed keelers sail less well than a sailboat with a counterweight keel however they all have a places and most underwater configurations are equal downwind.
Let's just hope everyone enjoys their choice of boat, stay safe in all their sailing and continue to enjoy life afloat and ashore.
Now whilst I have sympathy with those who reckon a lift keel in the Med is a waste of time - I've found mine of considerable value 3 times in the Med and another 5 getting there.
If I were setting out to go to the Med now, with what I know (and using the scenic route not the canals) I'd probably not spend the considerable extra sum needed for a lift keeler.
As for those who try and justify their point of view by denigrating lift keel boats (and exposing their considerable lack of knowledge, possibly because of the catch-all nature of the nomenclature) I find them exasperating and somewhat pitiable.
It could be said that ALL shallow-draft boats and most fixed keelers sail less well than a sailboat with a counterweight keel however they all have a places and most underwater configurations are equal downwind.
Let's just hope everyone enjoys their choice of boat, stay safe in all their sailing and continue to enjoy life afloat and ashore.
