Liferaft uneconomic to continue servicing - options?

[skyflyer]

My liferaft is 10 years old and as it now should (they say) go onto one year servicing cycles clearly that is uneconomic to have done professionally.
So I decided to have a look at it myself and see if it was something I could do which would mean I could extend its life indefinitely.
The first problem is that the gas cylinder is 2.1kg short of its 2.7kg charge! Interesting considering it was last tested and recharged 3 years ago - professionally! Either the activation valve or cylinder/valve union must have a leak. So all this time it was just a useless bit of junk weighing down the stern of my boat! (See. Below for some maths on the leak and detecting it)
So this means, almost certainly, a new inflation valve, as well as a cylinder recharge.
Meantime the flares - 2 parachute and 3 handheld - are time expired, as are seasickness tablets as is the battery for the light
Everything else seems to work, the raft has remained inflated for 24 hours and the overpressure valves work properly. It seems to be in good condition.
BUT I can't help feeling I'm flogging a dead horse here. I'm sure all those bits that need replacing are cheap enough if you are "in the trade" of servicing liferafts but as an end user, I think it's going to cost a fair bit. Is it worth it?
As it is a canister liferaft I did wonder if I could reuse the canister and just buy a valise raft to repackage into it and save a few quid that way. Probably not worth the hassle.
If I do replace it, where does one dispose of a liferaft - any use to anyone do you think?

MAths: 2.2kg lost over 3 years
2.2kg of CO2 is 1.2 cubic metres of gas at normal temp and pressure
That equates to 0.4 cubic metres per year, or 0.001096 cubic metres per day
That is 109 cubic centimetres per day or 4 cc per hour or 0.076 cc per minute
Which is 76 cubic millimetres per minute
Which in my opinion, translates to AT LEAST one small bubble a second if the cylinder and its valves and junctions had been properly tested for leaks!
UNLESS unbeknownst to me the canister has had an almight knock or been dropped at some point, this dislodging or loosening a previously gas tight join ?

 

[lw395]

What sailing are you doing that you feel a raft is necessary, but don't want the expense of writing it off over a 10 year cycle?
I can understand self servicing a raft for long term cruisers who've gone feral in the tropics.
I can understand people who sail coastally and are happy without a raft.
I can understand people who think it's good value to have a fully serviced up to date raft.

Not sure where you're coming from.
If you were looking at UK coastal and Brest/Elbe kind of range, then maybe there is a case for having a raft, but not duplicating the boats flares and other grab bag items?
A bare raft and a PLB?
The very minimum has to be that you trust it to inflate though?

 

[BabaYaga]

My liferaft is 10 years old and as it now should (they say) go onto one year servicing cycles clearly that is uneconomic to have done professionally.
So I decided to have a look at it myself and see if it was something I could do which would mean I could extend its life indefinitely.
The first problem is that the gas cylinder is 2.1kg short of its 2.7kg charge! Interesting considering it was last tested and recharged 3 years ago - professionally! Either the activation valve or cylinder/valve union must have a leak.

I think what you have found is very alarming and could be used as an argument for annual servicing, regardless of age. Which in turn would make having a liferaft really expensive, if done professionally.
So instead perhaps having the raft carefully weighed at the start of each season or once a year would be sensible?

Just for another perspective: My lift raft is now 28 years old, I have had it serviced professionally every five, six years and there has never been any major issue. Last service was in 2011 IIRC and I have now decided to replace it within a year or two.

 

[ShinyShoe]

a new inflation valve, as well as a cylinder recharge.

Not sure you will get a cylinder refilled for any ££ unless at a raft service centre.
[quoye]
Meantime the flares - 2 parachute and 3 handheld - are time expired, as are seasickness tablets as is the battery for the light
[/quote]
Thats the first £100+ of the service gone!
You don't say how big your raft is... but a new one would be <£700 for a 4 man.
Even if you could find a cylinder etc I'd be guessing you'd be at £350 to get, fit test etc. AND you'd have a niggling doubt you'd fixed the leak unless you actually find a faulty component. I'd certainly want to self service more frequently and before all higher risk procedures if I was doing this.

If I do replace it, where does one dispose of a liferaft - any use to anyone do you think?

Local tip. But a safety training centre etc may want it to play with. Or a sea scout group etc.
People do sell on ebay and people do buy them... ebay has buyers for all sorts of tat!

 

[pvb]

BUT I can't help feeling I'm flogging a dead horse here. I'm sure all those bits that need replacing are cheap enough if you are "in the trade" of servicing liferafts but as an end user, I think it's going to cost a fair bit. Is it worth it?

No, it's not worth it. Get a nice new raft (if you still need one). It will be vacuum-packed and will have 3-year servicing and a projected life of at least 12-15 years.

I inflated my old liferaft on the lawn, merely out of interest, and then cut it up to dispose of it.

 

[AndrewB]

Your old one will make an excellent Wendy House/Paddling Pool for your younger relatives. Less frivolously, consider donating to a local sea-safety training school. These are often looking for old life-rafts for demo purposes.

 

[Tucepi]

Dispose of it: either donate to a local RNLI, some will be pleased to collect it, or sell on eBay as I did and despite its age you'd be surprised or not how many people will be willing to travel to purchase it.

 

[Cantata]

If it is a Plastimo Cruiser 4-man raft I would be delighted to buy the canister off you. I just dropped mine and smashed it...

 

[Laysula]

Ocean Safety took my old one in part exchange for a new one.

 

[skyflyer]

What sailing are you doing that you feel a raft is necessary, but don't want the expense of writing it off over a 10 year cycle?
I can understand self servicing a raft for long term cruisers who've gone feral in the tropics.
I can understand people who sail coastally and are happy without a raft.
I can understand people who think it's good value to have a fully serviced up to date raft.

Not sure where you're coming from.
If you were looking at UK coastal and Brest/Elbe kind of range, then maybe there is a case for having a raft, but not duplicating the boats flares and other grab bag items?
A bare raft and a PLB?
The very minimum has to be that you trust it to inflate though?

I have a raft for two reasons really; 1), hitting a submerged container etc at night followed by rapid sinking and 2) I happen to think of it as a pretty good last ditch solution for MoB when my wife is left to try and recover me single handed as she has only basic boat handling skills (and interest) and I am not confident that she could run a singlehanded MoB drill to a safe conclusion.

Having a 20 year old boat, and a sailing budget that goes with that, I probably would not have bought a liferaft on the day I got the boat, but it had one and it seemed stupid not to keep it. As it turns out its been deadweight.

Grab bags dont always get grabbed, so no harm having some stuff onboard the raft

I trusted it to inflate (wrongly) because it had been professionally serviced and was within its allocated lifespan. Worrying really.

As someone else said, theres a merit to knowing the gross weight of the finished raft with bottle so long as your scales can accurately resolve a 2kg discrepancy on a weight of around 25kg.

 

[skyflyer]

Not sure you will get a cylinder refilled for any ££ unless at a raft service centre.
[quoye]
Meantime the flares - 2 parachute and 3 handheld - are time expired, as are seasickness tablets as is the battery for the light

Thats the first £100+ of the service gone!
You don't say how big your raft is... but a new one would be <£700 for a 4 man.
Even if you could find a cylinder etc I'd be guessing you'd be at £350 to get, fit test etc. AND you'd have a niggling doubt you'd fixed the leak unless you actually find a faulty component. I'd certainly want to self service more frequently and before all higher risk procedures if I was doing this.


Local tip. But a safety training centre etc may want it to play with. Or a sea scout group etc.
People do sell on ebay and people do buy them... ebay has buyers for all sorts of tat![/QUOTE]


Yep, thats pretty much the conclusion I came to whilst waiting fro replies to appear here. I am going to scarp it nd buy new. It was too big for boat really, anyway.

 

[skyflyer]

If it is a Plastimo Cruiser 4-man raft I would be delighted to buy the canister off you. I just dropped mine and smashed it...

No its a Seago and 8 man at that

 

[lw395]

I have a raft for two reasons really; 1), hitting a submerged container etc at night followed by rapid sinking ......

If you believe your sailing puts you at significant risk of that, to the point where you are prepared to spend any money on a raft, it's a very fine line to say £750 for a new one with 3 year service interval is bad value.

However I think the incidence of yachts catastrophically hitting alleged submerged containers in the English Channel is roughly the same number that get taken by the Kraken?

 

[Tranona]

However I think the incidence of yachts catastrophically hitting alleged submerged containers in the English Channel is roughly the same number that get taken by the Kraken?

Yes. Don't recall any instances of this happening in the English Channel. a long article in YM a few years ago failed to find more than one or two reliably recorded cases world wide involving yachts, although of course may be more as some of the unexplained disappearances might have been the result of a collision with a container. In fact most containers sink pretty quickly.

To help with risk assessment and decision about having a liferaft, it is worth reading the MAIB reports (and the Irish equivalent) over the last 15 years or so as most of the sinking type incidents involving yachts are reported there. It will help dispel many of the myths and misconceptions people have about the causes of founderings and ways of avoiding getting into a situation where it might happen and a liferaft be a possible solution..

 

[skyflyer]

If you believe your sailing puts you at significant risk of that, to the point where you are prepared to spend any money on a raft, it's a very fine line to say £750 for a new one with 3 year service interval is bad value.

However I think the incidence of yachts catastrophically hitting alleged submerged containers in the English Channel is roughly the same number that get taken by the Kraken?

I think you are misinterpreting my sentiments here! I don't have a problem with spending money on a liferaft, but I do have a problem with throwing away something that is perfectly useable or salvageable at a reasonable cost / in other words a problem with wasting money!

The tenet of this thread was supposed to elicit views on whether it was economic or not to restore this raft to service and if not how best to dispose of it in a way that gives some use to others

My boat is not coded so there is no obligation to conform with recommended service intervals and as it happens I'm really glad I did open it up and inflate it myself as it took me a good five minutes to discover - on a stable flat garage floor -what all the accessories and tools were and where they were stored and how to switch the light off and where the full falves were and all the other stuff you'd have no chance of doing at night in a swell!

I'd lay a bet that the raft itself is as good as the day it was made. Unfortunately the cost of replacing expired/failed items makes it uneconomic to continue use

My reasons for wanting a raft really aren't relevant or worthy of further discussion. This is in danger of becoming an anchor thread where people "weigh in" ( gedfit?!) with observations and strongly held personal views that are irrelevant to the original question asked !

But thanks for the contribution anyway ?

 

[ShinyShoe]

No its a Seago and 8 man at that

Thats a big beastie...

Do you sail with 8 on board in circumstances you think you might need it?

Wife and you alone, you MOB... ...what's the score... she chucks the canister at you to knock you out and make it a short drowning ! Seriously is the concern that she can't get the boat back to you, can't get close enough to you or can't get you boarded? Any of those and an 8 man raft is pretty much useless.

- Can't get back - she will be 100m away from you before she has even figured out you need the raft deployed. You wont swim 100m in conditions that sent you over with waterproofs and a life jacket and a raft blowing away from you.

- Can't get close enough. So why can't she throw the life ring instead of the 20kg solid lump at you. Its going alongside you and then she will need to stream it out to you. If she has the skills to do that she can chuck a life ring and do the same and it wont do so much damage when it hits you!

- Can't get you back in. Perhaps the most logical one. But can you get yourself into a 8man life raft after a short splash about in the English Channel with a wife panicky and you with a load of gear on? Thats assuming she actually manages single handedly to lift the 8 man raft and get it over the side to you. a rope ladder sounds more useful!

I'm not opposed to carrying a raft. If you sail with 8 it makes sense to have spaces for 8. Its gonna prove unpoular when you have to say to 2 crew members there is no space for them on the 6 man! 2 x 4mans might be better... Easier for wife to hit you with (but still not gonna work in my opinion). Twice the chance of a failure, but half the chance of a total failure of both.

All a compromise really. I'm thinking of contracting a seaking (or whatever the modern equivalent is these days) to follow me everywhere just in case...

 

[skyflyer]

All a compromise really. I'm thinking of contracting a seaking (or whatever the modern equivalent is these days) to follow me everywhere just in case..

Funnily enough i made the same point to a friend yesterday.

But you will recall that I said I think of it as a "last ditch effort" for MoB (primary worry being getting back on board in rough seas, not throwing it like a horseshoe buoy!) We have a scoop and boarding ladder but as we all know we only ever practice MoB in benign conditions, not in conditions when you are most likely to go overboard!

As i said, it came with the boat. We can have 7 onboard, we rarely have more than three or four and often its just the two of us. It is mounted in a canister on the push pit and releases with a simple catch so no trouble deploying

When I replace it I will get a four man. (part from anything else the weight on the push pit bothers me). If the odds stack up and we end up sinking on the day we have five or six aboard we'll have to take turns clinging to the side or something

 

[Daydream believer]

Is an 8 man safe with just 2 in it?
if you did want facilities for 8 then 2 * 4 man would seem the best option
How would the cost stack up for 1 * 8 as opposed to 2 * 4 ?
It could be one best quality 4 & one cheaper 4 man for the less likely situations

 

[lw395]

I think you are misinterpreting my sentiments here! I don't have a problem with spending money on a liferaft, but I do have a problem with throwing away something that is perfectly useable or salvageable at a reasonable cost / in other words a problem with wasting money!
......

An out of warrant liferaft is usable or salvageable in much the same way as an empty beer bottle.
Sad reflection on the waste of modern society and all that, but what you are really buying is the assurance that something is good (At least on paper!) for a period of time.
If that assurance is valuable enough to you, then pay up.
If not, fair enough, not everyone needs a liferaft.
I sail happily on yachts in both camps, to be fair a lot of people have rafts ether because racing requires it or they are tooled up for ocean crossing.

I'm not seeing any coherent reason for looking at middle ground of DIy'ing CO2 cylinders and all that. It looks like 90% of the cost per year for 10% of the assurance.

I do like the idea of inflating the old raft and familiarising ourselves.

 

[Daydream believer]

An out of warrant liferaft is usable or salvageable in much the same way as an empty beer bottle.
Sad reflection on the waste of modern society and all that, but what you are really buying is the assurance that something is good (At least on paper!) for a period of time.
If that assurance is valuable enough to you, then pay up.
If not, fair enough, not everyone needs a liferaft.
I sail happily on yachts in both camps, to be fair a lot of people have rafts ether because racing requires it or they are tooled up for ocean crossing.

I'm not seeing any coherent reason for looking at middle ground of DIy'ing CO2 cylinders and all that. It looks like 90% of the cost per year for 10% of the assurance.

I do like the idea of inflating the old raft and familiarising ourselves.

When ours went for its first service at premium we arranged for them to tell the wife when ready & she video'd it inflated, along with the inside etc.
Bit of an eye opener when we saw how one was supposed to get into it with all the gear on from the sea.
Still feel a bit re assured every time I trip over the d..d thing in the cockpit though