LIBS update: eBorders will be voluntary!

[Major Catastrophe]

However if they parked themselves south of Bembridge Ledge or the Needles they would be able to monitor most boats and would be able to board a significant proportion. Enough to make sufficient nuisance of themselves to encourage some skippers to voluntarily register.

Does not compute. As pointed out on this thread, or one of the others, with all the diferrent types of boats and the fact that Benbridge Ledge is a tiny part of the entire South Coast of England where boats leave for the Continent, the UKBA would not have time to screen every boat's name through their system, if they could read the name in the first place without passing close to the transom, so they will end up 'sample boarding' every boat that takes their fancy, just as it should be.

Registering your boat with the UKBA would not stop them boarding you, as again has been pointed out, if you were up to no good and registering your boat reduced the chance of a boarding, then it defeats the object of discriminating against unregistered boats.

Not only that, but do you envisage they will 'park up' 24 hours a day, or just in daylight?

 

[sailorman]

Does not compute. As pointed out on this thread, or one of the others, with all the diferrent types of boats and the fact that Benbridge Ledge is a tiny part of the entire South Coast of England where boats leave for the Continent, the UKBA would not have time to screen every boat's name through their system, if they could read the name in the first place without passing close to the transom, so they will end up 'sample boarding' every boat that takes their fancy, just as it should be.

Registering your boat with the UKBA would not stop them boarding you, as again has been pointed out, if you were up to no good and registering your boat reduced the chance of a boarding, then it defeats the object of discriminating against unregistered boats.

Not only that, but do you envisage they will 'park up' 24 hours a day, or just in daylight?

MABs have Sail numbers unlike most AWBs ( as this would put the price of a std AWB boat up)

 

[fireball]

They have 5 motherships (apparently) ... so one at the needles or bembridge ledge ... and those going from Poole, Weymouth, Brighton etc get away scott free?

I can see where you're coming from - but any 'stake-out' isn't going to give much in the way of results - and the chances of catching illegals on spec is miniscule...

 

[Major Catastrophe]

MABs have Sail numbers unlike most AWBs ( as this would put the price of a std AWB boat up)

Lol.

Yes, I appreciate that, but there are still loads of stinkies around and [TROLL] what with most raggies now using their engines, rather the sails.......[TROLL]

But, of course, it doesn't take much effort to falsify a sail number just as scrotes use false car number plates.

The problem with allowing leniency for registered boats is that the smugglers (Human and duty goods) will simply blend in by registering. If anything, I would target the registered boats as that was more likely to hit pay dirt.....not that there was any to hit, seeing as leisure boaters are not usually smugglers.

EDIT: I just Googled 'Sail Numbers' and it seems they are not unique. The RYA even offers a sail numbering service, a requirement only if racing, it says.

 

[dt4134]

... but any 'stake-out' isn't going to give much in the way of results - and the chances of catching illegals on spec is miniscule...

Agreed. Nobody in their right mind can possibly believe applying e-borders to yachtsmen is going to give them more than a miniscule increase in the chances of catching illegals. In fact it is so obvious it is easy to suspect there's another motive behind it. However, whatever the reasons behing it, it can be a bloody nuisance to yachtsmen. Although a voluntary system where very few volunteer is an improvement, it would still be possible to use a single vessel alternating between E & W of the IoW to harrass those who don't volunteer sufficiently frequently to still make it a bloody nuisance.

Having said that I'm relying on e-borders not going ahead. A few yachtsman maybe a bit of a problem, albeit one they can ignore trusting the yotties won't get popular support, but they still don't have a workable solution for Northern Ireland.

Crossing the border, for example, from Co. Louth to Co. Armagh is done by the locals with no more thought than people cross from Sussex to Hampshire. In the past it has taken a significant military presence in the area to even attempt to enforce border controls. Trying to impose controls again would be a significant boost to dissadent republicanism, and anyway I wouldn't be surprised if there's something in the Good Friday agreement that prevents them doing it.

On the other hand would you want to be the one to tell a bunch of Orangemen that they can't cross to Britain without passports & giving 48 hours notice? Bearing in mind that the UUP have already agreed to support the Tories & if the result of the next election is close, as many expect, the DUP will have significant influence too.

The whole thing is ill-concieved and unworkable. Far better if they just kept the CTA and maintained a common database between the UK, RoI, IoM & CIs of non-EU nationals entering & leaving. That would be smaller, more manageable and would have relevence to what they say they are trying to achieve. They'd probably also be more likely to get co-operation from skippers with non-EU nationals in the crew.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Not to mention the rest of the Channel, the southern East coast, and even south Wales to cover. The world does not revolve around the Solent!

Major, I agree. I was merely responding to earlier poster who asked how the approaches to the Solent could possibly be policed. Certainly if I were a dodgy yotter, I wouldn't be trying to come in through the Solent, but up some mud-fringed creek in the middle of nowhere, or Wales.

 

[Pye_End]

I think my headline "eBorders will be voluntary" is closer to the truth!

I too quizzed them about the scheme too today.

He said that I have the option of complying, or of not doing it. Not doing it would risk getting caught, and this in itself would risk 52 weeks in prison or/and a large fine.

So in that respect his story was the same - optional.

As far as the practicality was concerned, he said that flexibility was being built into the procedure, but that things were too fluid to really tll me exactly how it will work. Couldn't understand this 24 hour business as can put the passage plan in within the 24 hours, or before - so why mention it?

Didn't really understand why I was there talking to him in the end.

 

[nonitoo]

Sounds like the front end of the UKBA has no idea what the back end is doing !!

Tom

 

[sailorman]

Sounds like the front end of the UKBA has no idea what the back end is doing !!

Tom

Panto Horse

 

[Searush]

I too quizzed them about the scheme too today.

He said that I have the option of complying, or of not doing it. Not doing it would risk getting caught, and this in itself would risk 52 weeks in prison or/and a large fine.

So in that respect his story was the same - optional.

As far as the practicality was concerned, he said that flexibility was being built into the procedure, but that things were too fluid to really tll me exactly how it will work. Couldn't understand this 24 hour business as can put the passage plan in within the 24 hours, or before - so why mention it?

Didn't really understand why I was there talking to him in the end.

Oh THAT sort of "optional" then, like wearing seat belts, or obeying speed limits is "optional". You don't have to do it but if you get caught you will be punished!!!

Sounds like compulsion to me. Will we ever get a consistent approach to this?

A year in prison for changing or not declaring your actual destination or crew details seems a bit strong to me.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Not doing it would risk getting caught, and this in itself would risk 52 weeks in prison or/and a large fine.

So it's not voluntary then....and it will still be illegal to implement according to EU law.

Brian Rix couldn't produce a better farce.

 

[Gludy]

So its optional only as far as any crime you commit is optional .... crazy.

I think the people on the stand have no idea of what is happening, mind you I think that applies all the way to the top.

 

[deuc02]

The threat of eborders still exists, because government "assurances" simply aren't worth the paper they are written on, and still involves a lot of different decisions.

I presume you are referring to the big "decision" to make eborders "voluntary". Personally, I'm still not entirely convinced by that one: I fear it may be a spin that has been put on some "assurance" made to the EU to the effect that no-one would be prevented from travelling if the refused to supply information. That would help make eborders seem legal, but it would not prevent UKBA invoking all sorts of other sanctions on those who chose not to co-operate.

As that particular "decision" was made in order to make the whole eborders scheme seem acceptable to the EU, and was leaked to the press in the first week of January, it is pretty self-evident that (a) it was not significantly influenced by the RYA and (b) it wasn't influenced by a meeting that didn't take place until the Boat Show.

But there are plenty of more detailed matters to be discussed, so I don't think it is fair to suggest that the RYA were "just going through the motions": In any case, would you prefer the RYA to do nothing? or would you prefer them not to tell us about it? Seems to me that there are some on this forum who will damn them whatever they do!

I think it's a bit early to suggest that this is "a good result" until we see what it really means in practice. I cannot believe that UKBA would really give up their glorious empire-building scheme so quickly or easily.

And I'm afraid I don't think anyone qualifies for a "journo of the year" award for a headline that could have been cut and pasted from one page of a website to another page of the same website, nearly a week after it first appeared. (I'm not suggesting that rallyveteren actually plagiarised the YM article -- merely that his headline was the same and the story was very similar. (Rather like those "Yachting mags all run the same stories because they can't be bothered to write new ones" threads that appear on YBW, and probably for much the same reason -- that the story is of current interest and is based on the same set of basic facts)

And on a slightly lighter note perhaps there should be a cut and paste award on this forum. Any nominations?

 

[Cantata]

So its optional only as far as any crime you commit is optional .... crazy.
I think the people on the stand have no idea of what is happening, mind you I think that applies all the way to the top.

Well, I visited the UKBA stand this afternoon (Tuesday) and the bloke I discussed it with didn't say anything at all about it being voluntary.
What a total utter mess.

 

[Gludy]

What is the purpose of having a stand when they do not have a clear system to explain and seek comments on? Just to pose or look good?

The shambles of government is extreme ...... I just watched on TV the blinkin leader of that group that was banned to today being asked why if he hates Britain so much does he live of our social security payments - his answer was that all money belongs to god and so he cannot refuse it!!!! .... that along with the incredible border control saga has convinced me that we, as a country , have totally lost the plot.

For the first time I am now looking into becoming en ex-dom.

 

[robertj]

with regard to boarding around the solent area, its easy all they ahve to do is ask you to sail in a holding pattern until they have time to investigate your papers etc.
This is how the transport guys inspect heavy goods vehicles. They just pull them in and make them wait for hours till they have time to inspect.

happy sailing

 

[Gludy]

I do not think they have the right to enforce a holding pattern on boats ... board them yes but not force them to hold ..... I do not know, just guessing but guessing is what UK Border Force uses to formulate its front line rules.

 

[Lady Campanula]

We could always dissuade them by trailing very long 'Walker logs' on wire which just might entangle with their props and disable them..... provided we are showing the appropriate International Code Flag signal, of course....

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[Blue5]

I too quizzed them about the scheme too today.

He said that I have the option of complying, or of not doing it. Not doing it would risk getting caught, and this in itself would risk 52 weeks in prison or/and a large fine.

So in that respect his story was the same - optional.

.

Having difficulty understanding this.

If its voluntary and I decide not to play I risk getting boarded, so what do they do, take everbodys details including my best mate "Bill Smiff" who decided to come with us at the last moment. We are all legit, so whats the problem, no problem.

Same scenario, I send in crew list 24hrs before, at the last minute "Bill Smiff" jumps aboard, we get boarded at Bembridge Ledge, "allo, allo, allo" "Bill Smiff" aint on the list, your nicked!!

No brainer really...........................

 

[Marsupial]

Having difficulty understanding this.

If its voluntary and I decide not to play I risk getting boarded, so what do they do, take everbodys details including my best mate "Bill Smiff" who decided to come with us at the last moment. We are all legit, so whats the problem, no problem.

Same scenario, I send in crew list 24hrs before, at the last minute "Bill Smiff" jumps aboard, we get boarded at Bembridge Ledge, "allo, allo, allo" "Bill Smiff" aint on the list, your nicked!!

No brainer really...........................

I agree - but nicked for what exacly? If smiffy was a brit with a brit passport what are they going to do about it? Skipper has a written note to say smiffy did nt want his details posted on a system that lets theives know he is out of the country so whats wrong with that?