Li ion battery fire

[fisherman]

I note in the FT last saturday, columnist Stuart Kirk lost his boat to a (chinese) battery fire.
He mentions data from Gitnux
Lithium-Ion Battery Fire Statistics: Market Report & Data • Gitnux

 

[Supertramp]

Not prepared to subscribe to the article but I think I get the point about Chinese battery quality.

From a forum point of view it would be good to know what happened. Was it a fire in a lithium house battery set or in some minor accessory? And was it spontaneous (with the device unconnected to a charging source) or charging related? And was water involved?

I never leave items on charge when the boat is unattended except for my domestic Lead Acid batteries via a smart charger. And a dehumidifier sometimes. Which is made in China.....

I also suspect a degree of care is needed in condemning Chinese batteries and chargers (and dehumidifiers) as there are almost certainly safe, well engineered examples as well as cheap and risky ones.

I would expect that an FT journalist would not be messing with cheap and cheerful!

 

[dunedin]

As Supertramp asks, is this a ship battery - typically LiFePO4 - or was it some other gadget on board being charged?

 

[Refueler]

The report talks as if its a case study of fires generally - but actually then %'s the incidents ...

When you look at the incidents - they are only with Li based anyway .. and TBH - comments such as :

"24% of EV fires were directly caused by battery packs which most are lithium-ion."

mmmmm yeh OK ....

What would be % of a fuel based car in terms of fuel related fires ??

Just an example ...

Another ....

"48% of cell phone fires are caused by lithium-ion batteries"

How else would a cell phone catch fire ?? And I wonder what part of that 48% was the Samsung battery problem ? Which led to recall and advisorys issued while the batterys were replaced ??

 

[Alan S]

I note in the FT last saturday, columnist Stuart Kirk lost his boat to a (chinese) battery fire.
He mentions data from Gitnux
Lithium-Ion Battery Fire Statistics: Market Report & Data • Gitnux

I didn't see in that article anything about boats or LiFePO4 batteries.

 

[Neeves]

Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher

Virtually all electric vehicles use 'Lithium' batteries made in China and using a Chinese BMS. If Chinese vehicle LiFePO4 batteries were a safety issue we would know.

What is interesting is that despite the frequency of 'Lithium ion' (not LiFePO4) battery fires no-one is restricting their usage - just vague blanket warnings. There is no differentiation of 'Lithium' battery types nor whether the fires are caused by faulty batteries or faulty chargers.

It is quite possible to have safe 'Lithium ion' batteries and charge them safely - my Mac etc etc are examples. The culprits seem to be, and even this may be wrong, cheap leisure devices (scooters seem common place). The fault may lie with how the owners of said devices, how treat and use their charging transformers and connectors and have nothing to do with the supply source.

The Chinese recognise there is an issue and they will not transport shipments of 'lithium ion' batteries by air.

Jonathan

 

[fisherman]

I didn't see in that article anything about boats or LiFePO4 batteries.

FT weekend, p10, col 1. Quote: "The cause was a Chinese lithium-ion battery overheating or exploding, as more than 1 percent of them now do globally, according to Gitnux data"
Seems like a risk too much on a boat, however small the % is, for me anyway.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

FT weekend, p10, col 1. Quote: "The cause was a Chinese lithium-ion battery overheating or exploding, as more than 1 percent of them now do globally, according to Gitnux data"
Seems like a risk too much on a boat, however small the % is, for me anyway.

Lithium ion tech is well known to be the least reliable. Sony computers, Samsung phones, to cite 2 well known examples. To lump all lithium containing batteries in the same camp is just lazy. Cars are generally not lithium ion either. No, I wouldn’t use Li-ion batteries on a boat. As you say, it’s too much risk for the use. Fire at sea has to be the single most dangerous event we come across.

 

[dunedin]

FT weekend, p10, col 1. Quote: "The cause was a Chinese lithium-ion battery overheating or exploding, as more than 1 percent of them now do globally, according to Gitnux data"
Seems like a risk too much on a boat, however small the % is, for me anyway.

But again - what was the battery in? Any what type of “lithium-ion”, as they are not all the same risk?
Was it the boat batteries or was it a phone, or an iPad, or an electric bike?
From another thread on here, a big boat expert suggested that the insurance companies were worried not about the ship batteries, but the increasing number of battery “ toys”

 

[Chiara’s slave]

But again - what was the battery in? Any what type of “lithium-ion”, as they are not all the same risk?
Was it the boat batteries or was it a phone, or an iPad, or an electric bike?
From another thread on here, a big boat expert suggested that the insurance companies were worried not about the ship batteries, but the increasing number of battery “ toys”

Wightlink have recently refused to carry scooters, skateboards etc with lithium batteries.

 

[Supertramp]

There are lots of stories but there is little sense in the statistics. As Neeves says it may depend on how a battery is used, or abused, that matters. My reaction is to understand what failed, and to avoid it, rather than condemn new technology with statistical averages.

It's easy to say no to lithium batteries on board but I have phones, head torch, speaker and 2 tablets to keep charged and use. I suspect the risk from these is greater than from a properly installed and run LiFePO4 system. But they are not left charging unattended (except at home!).

 

[William_H]

Journalists drive me crazy with a bit of data picked up often from people with a vested interest. I imagine most of the data given in OP can be proven correct. But does it give an accurate message? I think not. My house is typical with dozens of lithium cells and packs . All the usual tools phones computers flash lights etc. I reckon a normal house hold. Yes we seem to see fires from lithium batteries in local TV news every few weeks. Many it seems caused by Escooters. My theory being that higher charge rates can increase risk of fire. Yes you can blame the Chinese but only because they make almost all of them. Recently a fire man commenting at a fire reckoned it occurred while not on charge or discharge. Not sure I believe that. Anyway I try not to leave devices on charge when not in attendance. But often fail in that intent. Remember back when almost all house fires were attributed to "electrical fault" ol'will

 

[Neeves]

I claim no expertise, as many of you will know - and you have long suspected but:

I have lithium batteries (I think) in my Mac Book - but I treat my Mac Book with considerable care - kid gloves, foam, you name it I'm careful (Mac Books are not cheap). I see kids and adults with electric scooters chuck them on the ground 'climb' on and zoom away, next hitting the kerb at some speed. I think the same battery chemistry ? don't know - but why might one be surprised that the scooter is oft mention in a 'Lithium' fire or a 'Lithium ion' fire. if they treat the scooter with disdain I wonder how they treat the charger....

Frankly I don't hear many stories of Mac Books catching fire. I don't hear many stories, actually any, stories of LiFePo4 fires. I am sure lots of Numpties use LiFePO4 batteries, I've got my hand up, I simply don't hear of fires - as confirmed caused by LiFePO4 - (with or without 'good' BMS).

The media is criticised for misnaming 'Lithium' - personally I don't think 'that' finger pointing is useful - the media are reporting and repeating what they are told by 'firemen', or police (and I'm not sure they, anyone, are 100% sure the fire was 'Lithium' or not a badly connected plug.....

The oft mentioned fire on board the dive boat in California where people died - the cause was assigned to lithium batteries, probably described as 'Lithium ion', whether the chargers were stressed the cabling sound etc etc - not mentioned (that I am aware of). Bunch of scuba divers, overloaded power boards??? they all need to recharge the phones and the cameras - we all become complacent at some stage - but blame it on 'Lithium' - which might be true - but indirectly. Certainly not LiFePO4.

Jonathan

 

[alan_d]

It would be interesting to see some meaningful figures about lithium batteries and fires, but this "data" from Gitnux is definitely not that. Using percentages in this way is a good way of grabbing attention, but a very poor way of painting an accurate picture of what is going on. For example, their first claim: Lithium-ion batteries are involved in an estimated 65% of waste facility fires in California. That word "estimated" - by whom, on what basis and with what probable margin of error? What, in this context, counts as a waste facility fire ? Everything from a fire in a wastepaper basket to the destruction of a complex of buildings? If not, what does it mean? What does involved (or, later, contribute to) mean? Supposing someone carelessly discarded smoking materials in a waste bin containing paper and a single button-type lithium battery, would the battery be deemed to have been involved in or contributed to that fire, whether or not it caught fire itself?

This publication from Gitnux (about whom I know nothing) has clearly been written to arouse and alarm rather than to inform. I hope no-one paid good money for it.

 

[fisherman]

But again - what was the battery in? Any what type of “lithium-ion”, as they are not all the same risk?
Was it the boat batteries or was it a phone, or an iPad, or an electric bike?
From another thread on here, a big boat expert suggested that the insurance companies were worried not about the ship batteries, but the increasing number of battery “ toys”

Better ask Stuart Kirk. I just quoted him verbatim.

 

[Rappey]

A youtuber guy who tests things bought a whole load of different brands of 18650 cells from alibaba. He tested their capacity. None of them were close to the claimed a/h .
Surefire claimed a 9.6a/h battery that barely made 1.2 a/h . Apparently 3.6 a/h is the max size for a 18650 cell.
These batteries are often put in high charge/discharge devices and then have a melt down as they cant cope with the high currents.
Seems if you want safe cells you need to buy branded like samsung, panasonic ,sony etc from a reliable source or risk fakes.
Site tools (makita, dewalt,milwaukee) get dropped, bashed, cooked in the hot sun, frozen, wet and often abused yet it seems a rarity they go up in flames.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

I note in the FT last saturday, columnist Stuart Kirk lost his boat to a (chinese) battery fire.
He mentions data from Gitnux
Lithium-Ion Battery Fire Statistics: Market Report & Data • Gitnux

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

One of the downsides of globalisation is quality control . Wise words on this thread to tread carefully and go for trustworthy makes.

 

[geem]

FT weekend, p10, col 1. Quote: "The cause was a Chinese lithium-ion battery overheating or exploding, as more than 1 percent of them now do globally, according to Gitnux data"
Seems like a risk too much on a boat, however small the % is, for me anyway.

On superyachts that very often have watersports toys powered by lithium batteries, they now have specific insurance clauses aimed at how this toys are charged and managed aboard. Storing them in metal boxes, charging them outside, etc
Most ignorant reporting never makes the distinction between lifepo4 chemistry and other more volatile lithium chemistries

 

[dunedin]

Better ask Stuart Kirk. I just quoted him verbatim.

Then why raise the thread if you don’t know what the boating story was? Otherwise it is just giving publicity to standard rumours, with no boating context.

 

[fisherman]

Then why raise the thread if you don’t know what the boating story was? Otherwise it is just giving publicity to standard rumours, with no boating context.

Sorry. promise i won't do it again.