Legalities of buying a boat...

[Geo1000]

Morning all. I made an offer on a boat and the owner has accepted it. This is my first boat purchase. How do I go about making the purchase legal?? I have downloaded the RYA Bill Of Sale template and the seller has provided his bill of sale from when he purchased the vessel. Do I need anything else??

Any input much appreciated,


Just to clarify, it's a Nicholson 27, 1979, and purchase price is £4k

 

[Fimacca]

Check the VAT status. Is it on the invoice ?
Is it SSR registered. Search for it online, as well as the name of the boat. There should be lots of docs/invoices from what they have spent on the boat. (they ALWAYS cost !)
If it is in the yard, have a chat with the yard staff about the boat.
(I would take the reg number of the sellers car and see where they live, but I am very suspicious!)
Fill out the RYA bill of sale and both sign it.(the seller should be doing it , but either can)

 

[Fimacca]

And welcome aboard. I hope she is good for you . I am doing the same, but thru a broker, although I sold my last privately......

 

[lynallbel]

Check the VAT status. Is it on the invoice ?
Is it SSR registered. Search for it online, as well as the name of the boat. There should be lots of docs/invoices from what they have spent on the boat. (they ALWAYS cost !)
If it is in the yard, have a chat with the yard staff about the boat.
(I would take the reg number of the sellers car and see where they live, but I am very suspicious!)
Fill out the RYA bill of sale and both sign it.(the seller should be doing it , but either can)

How do you legally get the owners address from their car registration number?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Here we go............................

 

[PaulRainbow]

Morning all. I made an offer on a boat and the owner has accepted it. This is my first boat purchase. How do I go about making the purchase legal?? I have downloaded the RYA Bill Of Sale template and the seller has provided his bill of sale from when he purchased the vessel. Do I need anything else??

Any input much appreciated,

An idea of the boat, age and value would be useful.

 

[mrming]

Also an idea of where you plan to use the boat would be good too. For small, cheap boats for local use, documentation is a nice to have. For more expensive / larger boats you might want to go abroad in, a nice pile of documentation is preferable. The RYA template lists the most important ones, however a new item not covered is some kind of “proof” of the the boat’s location on 31st December 2020. In my case that’s a letter from the boatyard where she’s ashore for the winter.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Morning all. I made an offer on a boat and the owner has accepted it. This is my first boat purchase. How do I go about making the purchase legal?? I have downloaded the RYA Bill Of Sale template and the seller has provided his bill of sale from when he purchased the vessel. Do I need anything else??

Any input much appreciated,

Get a small Mortgage on it. That's pretty much the only way of getting concrete proof the boat is yours. Everything else is 'inference here' and 'indication there'. The Bill of Sale simply indicates the boat has been sold not to who it belongs to.

I think the closest is Part 1 SSR. Also, get insurance on her, it's not that insurance is proof, but it is persuasive.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Get a small Mortgage on it. That's pretty much the only way of getting concrete proof the boat is yours. Everything else is 'inference here' and 'indication there'. The Bill of Sale simply indicates the boat has been sold not to who it belongs to.

I think the closest is Part 1 SSR. Also, get insurance on her, it's not that insurance is proof, but it is persuasive.

Everything here is wrong, a mortgage is no proof of ownership.

No such thing as "Part 1 SSR", it's either Part 1 registered or it's on the SSR (part 3)

Part 1 is pretty much proof, SSR is absolutely no proof at all, i can take out a SSR registration on your boat right now, for just £35. I could also insure your boat, so also meaningless.

 

[easton]

Congratulations. Once you've made the offer, they've accepted and money has transferred, legally it's yours.
(as long as the seller has the competency to sell it; you've done a little bit of due diligence by checking their original bill of sale)

Fill out your bill of sale, signatures, hand over your hard earned etc. then transfer the registry if it's pt1 or Pt3 (SSR).

Of course do the whole boring insurance, marina or mooring or trailer home part

Then go sailing or motoring or staring at the boat from your front room during lockdown,

(yes, theoretically it could have a mortgage attached (only if it's pt1 registered) but I'd worry about that if I was paying £100K rather than £10K. And yes, you could check if VAT has been paid but whether to worry about that really depends on its history, price, what you'll be doing with it. Hence Paul's Question about boat, age and value)

Or you could not worry about that and go sailing...

 

[superheat6k]

Ideally you should request sight of all prior bills of sale back to the original invoice and then write out a list of the ownership history. Personally if the boat history shows it has always been owned by UK nationals I wouldn't worry unduly about VAT status, but if it has ever been owned in the Channel Islands or by a Company then insist on a proof of VAT having been paid. In the case of a Company ownership the Vat payment should documented in the transaction where it was sold to the next person owner, don't rely on an original invoice in this situation.

VAT becomes less of a concern the older the boat is, and anything pre 1990 and where the value is say less than £10k then I wouldn't worry about that at all. For a more recent or higher value boat then if VAT status can't be established consider up to a 20% reduction in the price. Bear in mind that when you come to sell your buyer will require this from you.

Also be wary of buying a grey import that is not RCD compliant. It is illegal to sell such a vessel, and illegal to use also, although IMHO RCD is simply a bureaucratic nonsense atypical of the EU. Again the real issue here is when you come to sell. Generally RCD does not apply to boats built pre 1997, except imports from outside the EU.

If you are paying more than say £5 k and as a first time buyer then definitely have it surveyed before paying more than a holding deposit.

Every boat owners' ideal purchaser is a first timer who is green and often wearing rose tinted spectacles. Take those off immediately.

Good luck and I hope you found a decent boat.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Everything here is wrong, a mortgage is no proof of ownership.

No such thing as "Part 1 SSR", it's either Part 1 registered or it's on the SSR (part 3)

Part 1 is pretty much proof, SSR is absolutely no proof at all, i can take out a SSR registration on your boat right now, for just £35. I could also insure your boat, so also meaningless.

My part 1 registration certificated specifically states "A Certificate of registry is not proof of ownership" in the section titled Important Information. ???

 

[Never Grumble]

A contract between both parties, I've previously used a copy of the RYA agreement for the sale and purchase of a second hand boat. If the seller won't fully complete a copy of that then you must wonder if he actually has legal title/owns the boat. If you get the seller to complete his details section and worried about his address etc i.e. you don't trust him, then you can always check what he has written down against the entry on land registry, OK it will cost £3 but for peace of mind that has got to be worth it.

As others have said the documents showing the ownership history of the boat and when this has changed etc.
Ships radio license, make it easy for you to have the existing details when you come to apply for yours.
Historical receipts
Log book
Existing and historical registration documents.

The availability of these will depend on what you are buying and how much you are spending. But the more the better.

 

[oldgit]

Surely it entirely depends on the age and value of the boat ?
Up to 5-10 K worth or over 25 years old all you want to know regards bits of paper is, does it float and does it actually belong to the bloke selling it to you.
Worth going onto Google Earth and pop in the sellers address , can sometimes confirm a few things about the seller.

 

[Tranona]

Morning all. I made an offer on a boat and the owner has accepted it. This is my first boat purchase. How do I go about making the purchase legal?? I have downloaded the RYA Bill Of Sale template and the seller has provided his bill of sale from when he purchased the vessel. Do I need anything else??

Any input much appreciated,


Just to clarify, it's a Nicholson 27, 1979, and purchase price is £4k

That is all you need. any other historic bits of paper are interesting but of little practical value. The previous BoS is sufficient evidence of the sellers title to sell and the new one for this transaction is your record of title. Simples. The only other thing I would check is that there are no outstanding yard bills as these stay with the boat. although the BoS requires the seller to state the title is free, there is always the possibility that he is not being truthful.

 

[Tranona]

My part 1 registration certificated specifically states "A Certificate of registry is not proof of ownership" in the section titled Important Information. ???

That is true. Strictly speaking it is registration of title which allows one to sell, but it is not legally evidence of who has beneficial ownership. the difference is explained in plain English in the RYA advice on the subject.

Note that Paul said it is "pretty much proof" which is a good way to put it. In practical terms, and particularly if the seller is a private individual title and ownership are synonymous.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Everything here is wrong, a mortgage is no proof of ownership.

No such thing as "Part 1 SSR", it's either Part 1 registered or it's on the SSR (part 3)

Part 1 is pretty much proof, SSR is absolutely no proof at all, i can take out a SSR registration on your boat right now, for just £35. I could also insure your boat, so also meaningless.

Apologies wrong terminology.

However with regards to mortgage, I beg to differ. In the eyes of the Civil Courts there is little stronger proof of you owning something than if you have a mortgage... notably mortgages require part 1.

Insuring the boat is as I said before... persuasive, I didn't say it was determinative. Compare person a (the owner) who has no proof of ownership, not even a VAT receipt, no mooring bills nothing.... to person b (imposter) who bothered to take out insurance, has various pictures with them standing next to the boat... who do you think the Judge or Jury will believe?

 

[RupertW]

Apologies wrong terminology.

However with regards to mortgage, I beg to differ. In the eyes of the Civil Courts there is little stronger proof of you owning something than if you have a mortgage... notably mortgages require part 1.

Insuring the boat is as I said before... persuasive, I didn't say it was determinative. Compare person a (the owner) who has no proof of ownership, not even a VAT receipt, no mooring bills nothing.... to person b (imposter) who bothered to take out insurance, has various pictures with them standing next to the boat... who do you think the Judge or Jury will believe?

I looked at a boat and made an offer but to save time as it was abroad I got an SSR in my name for it before I flew out to view and whilst we were negotiating the final parts I insured it with the new SSR - none of which I mentioned to the vendor obviously.
That meant I had registered the boat with SSR 7 weeks before I owned it and insured it 4 weeks before.

 

[Tranona]

Why are you making it all so complicated for a 43 year old boat worth £4k by introducing hypothetical situations that will never arise for the OP. He asked a simple question and the answer is very simple. Your first post is completely wrong. The BoS is the best legal evidence of title - that is what the document is. There may of course be other factors that mean the title is not clear, and even registration of this title on Part 1 does not necessarily capture everything, although it will show a mortgage IF it is registered. BTW please tell me who would lend money via a mortgage on a £4k boat? Don't understand your point about insurance. He can insure the boat (at least for third party risks) after a few keystrokes on his computer and giving his bank account details without presenting any proof of ownership - all self declaring.

Always best to read the original question thoroughly first before replying then your response is likely to be relevant.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If i was buying a 1979 Nicholson 27, for £4K, i would want a bill of sale and the keys.