masterofnone
Well-Known Member
The 5 yr cycle comes around again. Time to struggle to get rid of £200 of out of date flares. Is it time to consider led flares as a replacement?
Led flares
- Thread starter masterofnone
- Start date
Rappey
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should read this thread first ? Im sure it will cover what you want and some as there are a good 7 pages of discussion
RYA calls to end the compulsory carriage of flares on leisure craft.
RYA calls to end the compulsory carriage of flares on leisure craft.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I just submitted an article testing electronic flares from Orion, Sirius Signal, and ACR. The US Coast Guard approves them under two separate standards. Yup, I decided they were more visible than flares, so no more flares for me.
Sirius makes two, depending on how much money you want to spend (the more expensive one is better).
Sirius makes two, depending on how much money you want to spend (the more expensive one is better).
Gary Fox
N/A
I wouldn't bother with those mickey-mouse LED winky-twinklers, they are not recognised as an emergency signal by most people.
If your flares went OOD in 2020/21, I would accept them. Isle of Wight though unfortunately.
If your flares went OOD in 2020/21, I would accept them. Isle of Wight though unfortunately.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I got loads from around 1988 if you want them
I keep forgetting to dispose of them..
ashtead
Well-Known Member
I guess this rather depends on how far you travel from Newhaven and with what other equipment assuming you are not satisfying any racing/charter regs. I have one of those winky twinkles by Orion but also a few flares if outdated I suspect . If I ever return to France I might invest in a couple of flares in date but for any West Country journey not so concerned.
Gary Fox
N/A
It doesn't get any easier as time passes..
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I inherited them when I bought my boat some 28 years ago. They are buried in a cavernous lazarette so it's easy to forget they are there.
I've looked into getting rid of them a few times over the years.
I think the fact I still have them gives you an idea of what I actually achieved ?
I've looked into getting rid of them a few times over the years.
I think the fact I still have them gives you an idea of what I actually achieved ?
scottie
Well-Known Member
From MAIB DIGEST
However, on the fourth occasion, just as the two fishermen had returned to the wheelhouse to reposition, the boat was struck by a large wave and capsized. After the capsize, the boat floated upside down (Figure 3).
Both crewmen were initially trapped inside the wheelhouse. To escape, they had to remove their lifejackets and swim down through the wheelhouse door and up to the surface. The
Figure 1: The catamaran fishing vessel (not at the time of the accident)
skipper was then able to inflate the liferaft that had floated clear and both crewmen scrambled in. The crew then used the liferaft’s flares to raise the alarm.
Ashore, the accident had been witnessed by
a member of the public who informed the coastguard. A warship that was operating in the area responded to the distress call and rescued the fishermen from their liferaft, transferring them to the lifeboat, using a RIB. One of the fishermen had suffered a minor head injury, so was transferred to hospital
It was fortunate that the alarm was
raised by a member of the public because the crew were unable to raise the alarm
by any electronic means. The boat was well equipped with VHF radios (fixed and handheld), an EPIRB and PLBs. However, none of these methods of alerting the coastguard to distress could be used because all were left behind in the wheelhouse when the boat capsized.
However, on the fourth occasion, just as the two fishermen had returned to the wheelhouse to reposition, the boat was struck by a large wave and capsized. After the capsize, the boat floated upside down (Figure 3).
Both crewmen were initially trapped inside the wheelhouse. To escape, they had to remove their lifejackets and swim down through the wheelhouse door and up to the surface. The
Figure 1: The catamaran fishing vessel (not at the time of the accident)
skipper was then able to inflate the liferaft that had floated clear and both crewmen scrambled in. The crew then used the liferaft’s flares to raise the alarm.
Ashore, the accident had been witnessed by
a member of the public who informed the coastguard. A warship that was operating in the area responded to the distress call and rescued the fishermen from their liferaft, transferring them to the lifeboat, using a RIB. One of the fishermen had suffered a minor head injury, so was transferred to hospital
It was fortunate that the alarm was
raised by a member of the public because the crew were unable to raise the alarm
by any electronic means. The boat was well equipped with VHF radios (fixed and handheld), an EPIRB and PLBs. However, none of these methods of alerting the coastguard to distress could be used because all were left behind in the wheelhouse when the boat capsized.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
What you describe does not necessarily translate to a yacht situation. When did you last hear of a yacht capsizing such that there was no way or communicating, but still in sight of land and other ships? Sudden capsizes are common (relatively) for fishing boats which is why they are required to have float free EPIRBs and liferafts, although they are not foolproof. Risks faced by fishing boats are very different from those faced by yachts as reading MAIB reports will show.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
So perhaps all this lengthy tale tells us is that it is about access to safety gear, not the type of gear. specifically
(a) if have a float free life raft, make sure you lack it with suitable rescue kit - which might have been a PLB and LED flare instead of pyrotechnics; but better still
(b) if boat has risk of capsize also have float free EPIRB; and better still
(c) have a boat that won’t capsize, or is self righting.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
In the testing we did, the LED SOS beacons were consistantly rated more recognizable than flares at any distance over 1/4 mile. The flare becomes a point of light that lasts a few minutes, but the SOS stands out from the background because it is flashing, and if you look at the flashes, it is obvious it is not a traffic light or ATN.
You can scoff at them as "winky twinklers" if a blaze of slag makes you feel better. I thought the same, until I spent a night photographing them at distances up to 2 km. The twinklers were obvious. The flares were only noticeable against the background if I was looking at them the moment they were lit.
BTW, flashing orange/red (three short) then cyan (three long) is now a new US Coast Guard RTCM Distress Light Standard. They are much brighter and also signal in the IR so that they are more visible to SAR using night vision.
William_H
Well-Known Member
To me flares are something you don't want but must have by legislation (or just to be seen to be responsible). Horrible dangerous things to use and expensive. Now it does vary a bit as to where you sail. If I had a choice I would go for an EPIRB with GPS. rather than flares however due to local regulations I must carry both to venture out beyond 3 nm . (and flares nust be in date) I don't think I would put much faith in LED flares. But if they are not too expensive perhaps might be useful. ol'will
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Why?
- Because or what you have heard?
- Because LEDs seem lame compared to good old flares?
- Because they do not meet carriage requirements in your area?
Curiously, no one mentioned that flares last 3 minutes and eVDSDs last 6-8 hours (longer if you have spare batteries).
(BTW, the term LED flare does not mean anything specific unless a standard is attached to it. My comments in this thread ONLY relate to electronic signalling devises meeting specific USCG standards, principally the Orion 547 and Sirius Signal C-1002 and C-1003. There are non-standard devises out there.)
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Surely a rocket flare has a greater range than 2 KM. Did you compare them at 15 KM?
Did you take into account the fact that the casualty might not be in a position to hold the electronic flare in the optimum position & if in a liferaft the "all round" vision is suddenly reduced to 90 degrees?
I note that you mention night photography. What was the daytime performance like?
I have nothing against new technology but I cannot help wondering how one intends to educate the public. I can understand that the appearance of a flashing light on a distant hillside would raise concern. However, a flashing light near a shipping channel or buoyed navigational area might not have anything like the same effect to a casual land observer.
At sea this may be a different matter of course. But so many small boat sailors are probably on, or only just over, the horizon for most of their trips.
If I sail from Bradwell to the Channel Islands, I am actually out of sight of land ( fog excepted) for a couple of hours. When going round the Uk possibly 12 hours at best crossing the Irish sea & Firth of Forth
So would not most alarms be raised by land observers if not directly generated by other means from the vessel. Once the alarm had been raised then the electronic device would come into its own I am sure.
Provided the operator was in a position to hold it up & not laying seasick in the liferaft wishing he had drowned anyway.
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Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
Surely an important difference must be that the flare is visible over 360 degrees. Does not the led "flare" have to be pointed at a target? If so, how to find the target.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
I think it comes down to the sort of sailing you do. Offshore, I can see a use for parachute flares, inshore, not so much, and I'd far rather put an LED into the hands of an inexperienced, scared crew than a bloody great firework. A laser may need to be pointed, but my LED is visible 360 degrees, just like a flare. Unlike a flare though, it goes on being visible for a couple of hours.
Gary Fox and others are believers in flares, I'm sure they have their reasons, but my risk assessment is that, with two VHFs and at least one mobile phone, for pottering around the Solent, with the odd blue water voyage to Weymouth, an LED that needs a battery change every 14 years sounds like a good option over fireworks that I'll struggle to dispose of in three. I don't carry a life raft, and it would be a pretty rare accident where I couldn't retrieve my grab bag and fuel can before getting into the dinghy.
Gary Fox and others are believers in flares, I'm sure they have their reasons, but my risk assessment is that, with two VHFs and at least one mobile phone, for pottering around the Solent, with the odd blue water voyage to Weymouth, an LED that needs a battery change every 14 years sounds like a good option over fireworks that I'll struggle to dispose of in three. I don't carry a life raft, and it would be a pretty rare accident where I couldn't retrieve my grab bag and fuel can before getting into the dinghy.
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
I'm interested. I don't like pyrotechnic flares, my wife found it impossible to set off a hand held one and the demonstrator from the RNLI related the story of a professional who was seriously injured by a hand held that "back fired".
Please describe the 360° variety.
scruff
Well-Known Member
Coincidentally I was looking at "laser" flares this morning.
I was fairly Laissez-faire about the use of pyrotechnic flares, up until we set off a handheld flare in a controlled setting. Quite frankly they scared the bejesus out of me.
The thought of using them on either a violently rocking deck or even worse an inflatable liferaft doesn't bear thinking about. One moment of being off balance and you've burnt a hole and burst your liferaft / lifejacket / very serious burns to your person.
I was fairly Laissez-faire about the use of pyrotechnic flares, up until we set off a handheld flare in a controlled setting. Quite frankly they scared the bejesus out of me.
The thought of using them on either a violently rocking deck or even worse an inflatable liferaft doesn't bear thinking about. One moment of being off balance and you've burnt a hole and burst your liferaft / lifejacket / very serious burns to your person.
stu9000
Well-Known Member
Surprisingly little info on line about this...
.
This YM article is from 2013. Presumably there has been some development since then.
Pyro flares certainly are satisfyingly bright but last a very short time.
Good if an approaching rescue vessel was trying to pin point me but not great if I was trying to attract a passing ship. I'm not sure how likely that is for me as a channel yachtsman. Firing pyros off in an inflatable must carry some risk.
I'm a believer in led flares in principle as they last longer, don't burn and do not need replacing. but was a bit underwhelmed by the admittedly very old YM vid.
This YM article is from 2013. Presumably there has been some development since then.
Pyro flares certainly are satisfyingly bright but last a very short time.
Good if an approaching rescue vessel was trying to pin point me but not great if I was trying to attract a passing ship. I'm not sure how likely that is for me as a channel yachtsman. Firing pyros off in an inflatable must carry some risk.
I'm a believer in led flares in principle as they last longer, don't burn and do not need replacing. but was a bit underwhelmed by the admittedly very old YM vid.
