Leaving and entering schengen countries Passport Question

[sailaboutvic]

So, the hypothetical question.

Uk passport, enter & leave before 90 days.
Few days later, Irish passport, enter & leave before 90 days.
Rinse & Repeat.

Lot of confusion by some here and else where , if you have a Irish passport you have FOM , end off

 

[Sea Devil]

Yes Sea Devil that's how I see it, so FoM as far as Spain is concerned since 2012, is really just the loss of 90 days out of 180,for all other purposes registration is required, which seems to be the same for all other nationalities wanting to be in Spain.

Not quite I think... If you have an EU passport - Irish - you may stay in Spain for 180 days... After 180 days you are considered to be a resident and as such must have all the paperwork a Spanish citizen does - ID card (called NIE or TIE) health card, make income tax returns, be register at the town hall with a Padron.. Spanish driving licence as soon as your existing EU driving licence runs out - different rules if you have a UK licence,
Spain is a very ID conscientious country. For it's own citizens and residents.
All EU countries consider 180 days stay as the moment you are there permanently.. resident. Once you are resident you must have the same paperwork as any other Spanish Citizen.
Before 180 days its just an extended holiday or visit....
So after 180 days you must conform to stay legal
Brits may only visit the EU for 90 days then must leave - and not re-enter for 180 days..

 

[syvictoria]

Yes Sea Devil that's how I see it, so FoM as far as Spain is concerned since 2012, is really just the loss of 90 days out of 180,for all other purposes registration is required, which seems to be the same for all other nationalities wanting to be in Spain.

No! For EU citizens, registering at 90/180 days (depending on country and circumstances) is a formality only - an EU citizen has FoM and the right to live, work and study anywhere within the EU. Third country nationals (UK citizens) have to either apply for an alternative visa (often expensive, lots of hoops, not even possible or available in every circumstance/country) or leave. The UK citizen's situation has CHANGED as of 1/1/21.

 

[Graham376]

For a start, nothing has changed with an Irish or any other passport issued by EU country. The general rule across Schengen is that anyone holding those passports has to register their presence with the local authority if they spend more than 90 days in that state, which is not applying for "residence", that is usually a further step.

Each country seems to have their own rules and I understand Spain requires anyone there >6 months to become officially resident, matriculate the boat etc. This is not the case in Portugal but I know nothing about other countries. Anyone with an Irish passport can register residence in Portugal (maybe elsewhere) allowing indefinite stay here and still be free to roam all other states for up to 3 months consecutively in each without registering.

 

[Sea Devil]

For a start, nothing has changed with an Irish or any other passport issued by EU country. The general rule across Schengen is that anyone holding those passports has to register their presence with the local authority if they spend more than 90 days in that state, which is not applying for "residence", that is usually a further step.

Each country seems to have their own rules and I understand Spain requires anyone there >6 months to become officially resident, matriculate the boat etc. This is not the case in Portugal but I know nothing about other countries. Anyone with an Irish passport can register residence in Portugal (maybe elsewhere) allowing indefinite stay here and still be free to roam all other states for up to 3 months consecutively in each without registering.

I think, think the cut-off for EU citizens is 180 consecutive days not 90... If you stay over 180 then you are a resident and in certain counties not having ID papers, padron, paying tax or making a tax return is an offence. I think all this varies a little with the local laws of each EU country but with a EU passport you can spend as much time as you like in any EU country up to 180 days... 99% certain it 180 not 90 that is the cutoff

 

[sailaboutvic]

Not quite I think... If you have an EU passport - Irish - you may stay in Spain for 180 days... After 180 days you are considered to be a resident and as such must have all the paperwork a Spanish citizen does - ID card (called NIE or TIE) health card, make income tax returns, be register at the town hall with a Padron.. Spanish driving licence as soon as your existing EU driving licence runs out - different rules if you have a UK licence,
Spain is a very ID conscientious country. For it's own citizens and residents.
All EU countries consider 180 days stay as the moment you are there permanently.. resident. Once you are resident you must have the same paperwork as any other Spanish Citizen.
Before 180 days its just an extended holiday or visit....
So after 180 days you must conform to stay legal
Brits may only visit the EU for 90 days then must leave - and not re-enter for 180 days..

Sea Devil if I may just come in here , basically what you said is correct .
This hasn't changed just because we left the EU .
But for them who have EU passport unless they are looking to live or work In The EU , in other words us cruisers being in any EU country more then 180 , register don't come onto it ,
All the years I been cruising in the EU and that includes Portugal tho it's been some year since we been there we overstayed by years not months in most countries and never had a problem , I have never met anyone face to face who as had a problem ,
for some reason this is the only sailing forum where anyone seen to say they know someone who had problem .
The only one case I know of was in Spain where a brit who lived on his boat and was also running a business and had a apartment he was renting out in Spain had a problem not only with registration as well as import tax on the boat and other tax issues .

 

[Sea Devil]

Sea Devil if I may just come in here , basically what you said is correct .
This hasn't changed just because we left the EU .
But for them who have EU passport unless they are looking to live or work In The EU , in other words us cruisers being in any EU country more then 180 , register don't come onto it ,
All the years I been cruising in the EU and that includes Portugal tho it's been some year since we been there we overstayed by years not months in most countries and never had a problem , I have never met anyone face to face who as had a problem ,
for some reason this is the only sailing forum where anyone seen to say they know someone who had problem .
The only one case I know of was in Spain where a brit who lived on his boat and was also running a business and had a apartment he was renting out in Spain had a problem not only with registration as well as import tax on the boat and other tax issues .

I agree that most of the people got away with it most of the time... I think Portugal accepted its liveaboard community by turning a blind eye as indeed did Spain and I think they will continue to do so for all those with EU passports. It's anecdotal but I have been boarded by Guardia civil 3 times in 12 years and had my paperwork checked - but then I sail a lot to different places and if you keep your head down in a liveaboard marina you will probably be fine in Portugal. Spain I do know that in France you will be punished for sure... Although the French have far fewer rules than Portugal or Spain they do actively enforce them.. I had a visit by the French a few weeks ago and took the opportunity to ask how my boat would be affected with my situation and they said they didn't know and wouldn't until after Brexit... I am now a legal resident and as soon as my Carte de Sejour arrives I will go to the Gendarmerie Maritime with all my papers and ask again....

 

[Graham376]

From Your Europe site -

During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, as EU national, you cannot be required to apply for a residence document confirming your right to live there - although in some countries you may have to report your presence upon arrival.
After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register your residence with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station), and to be issued with a registration certificate.

 

[syvictoria]

99% certain it 180 not 90 that is the cutoff

I believe that it's, in most instances/EU countries, 90 days for registering presence, and 180 days for becoming resident for tax purposes, etc.

Edit: Sorry, I see that Graham376 has just also confirmed this - I got interrupted by a telephone call mid post!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I agree that most of the people got away with it most of the time... I think Portugal accepted its liveaboard community by turning a blind eye as indeed did Spain and I think they will continue to do so for all those with EU passports. It's anecdotal but I have been boarded by Guardia civil 3 times in 12 years and had my paperwork checked - but then I sail a lot to different places and if you keep your head down in a liveaboard marina you will probably be fine in Portugal. Spain I do know that in France you will be punished for sure... Although the French have far fewer rules than Portugal or Spain they do actively enforce them.. I had a visit by the French a few weeks ago and took the opportunity to ask how my boat would be affected with my situation and they said they didn't know and wouldn't until after Brexit... I am now a legal resident and as soon as my Carte de Sejour arrives I will go to the Gendarmerie Maritime with all my papers and ask again....

Graham was correct with it being 90 days then you had to register but as I said thats really for people looking to live or work in that country , we have cruised for nine months non stop anfew times in France and had a few boarding while there and not had any thing said plus as we was in the EU at the time we was never asked when we arrived or when we was leaving , so in really I dont see that changing for people who have EU passport,( Irish or what ever ), people here ybw are making it much more complicated then what it is and by doing so they are confusing others , it seen because we left the EU some here think things will change to the extend that official are going to start questioning every brits boats They see, this ain't happen before we left the EU to our non EU brothers so why is it going to start now because the UK have left the EU .

 

[Sea Devil]

Graham was correct with it being 90 days then you had to register but as I said thats really for people looking to live or work in that country , we have cruised for nine months non stop anfew times in France and had a few boarding while there and not had any thing said plus as we was in the EU at the time we was never asked when we arrived or when we was leaving , so in really I dont see that changing for people who have EU passport,( Irish or what ever ), people here ybw are making it much more complicated then what it is and by doing so they are confusing others , it seen because we left the EU some here think things will change to the extend that official are going to start questioning every brits boats They see, this ain't happen before we left the EU to our non EU brothers so why is it going to start now because the UK have left the EU .

My guess is that it will vary country to country = Portugal is desperate for tourism and having Brit 2nd home owners and will probably certainly be pretty laid back as before,,, Spain not sure - their Guardia civil computer system logs cruising boats in and out of every marina they visit so they will know for certain if you have exceeded your 90 days also stamping your passport the moment you enter an EU port and entering ito the EU trace system will make things difficult - but Spain like Portugal is very dependent on tourism so.... France will check your time limits for sure - so easy with passport stamps and tracing computer system... Greece will probably do everything they can to encourage tourism - cruising boats but only time will tell- in my opinion nobody knows how it will all work out in the end

 

[nortada]

For a start, nothing has changed with an Irish or any other passport issued by EU country. The general rule across Schengen is that anyone holding those passports has to register their presence with the local authority if they spend more than 90 days in that state, which is not applying for "residence", that is usually a further step.

Each country seems to have their own rules and I understand Spain requires anyone there >6 months to become officially resident, matriculate the boat etc. This is not the case in Portugal but I know nothing about other countries. Anyone with an Irish passport can register residence in Portugal (maybe elsewhere) allowing indefinite stay here and still be free to roam all other states for up to 3 months consecutively in each without registering.

Just reading the responses on here, it seems that a fairly simple situation has got incredibly complicated. This stems from folk jumbling a variety of personal circumstances and situations into omnibus answers and lacing it with anecdotal 'evidence'.

Considering sets of individual circumstances would keep it straight forward and simple.

On 1/1/21, travelling in the EU for British passport holders changed but for all holders of passports issued by the 27 (including Ireland) nothing changed. Holders of these passports continue to have complete FoM but may have to register their presence if they intend to remain in a country, other than their own for more than 90 days - some countries enforce this requirement, most don't.

Turning to Brits, who in general terms, fall into 2 main categories, those who have residency in an EU country and those who don't. There are further smaller numbers who hold citizenship in an EU country or are married to a EU citizen. These groups will have a good understanding of their special circumstances and possible extra privileges. As they may vary markedly from person to person and country to country, they cannot be debated generically.

Looking at the 2 main categories, the majority of British passport holders do not have residency in a EU country. For them it is simple, under Schengen Rules they can spend up to 90 days in 180 in the EU. When they get to the 90 day point they have to vacate all EU countries. Clearly these visitors will not have to register their visits in host countries. I understand that, currently, these visitors do not require a visa?

The other, smaller main category, British Passport holders with residency in an EU county, can spend unlimited time in their host country but are still subject to the Schengen 90/180 day rule elsewhere.

Some folk are looking for work-arounds and some exist but they will be a complication and crunch time may come when they are confronted by a local official who doesn't accept/understand the work-around and is not prepared to debate the prose and cons (possibly in a language other than in English) - life could get interesting. Especially if you are arriving by boat off the beaten track.

As an aside, it appears, in a new move, Portugal is posting border guards at marinas.

 

[nortada]

ps, I understand folk, who have residency in an EU country, are permitted to discount their travel time to and from their host country against their 90 day allowance.

How big is the discount allowance

Who knows - how long is a bit of string

 

[st599]

My guess is that it will vary country to country = Portugal is desperate for tourism and having Brit 2nd home owners and will probably certainly be pretty laid back as before,,, Spain not sure - their Guardia civil computer system logs cruising boats in and out of every marina they visit so they will know for certain if you have exceeded your 90 days also stamping your passport the moment you enter an EU port and entering ito the EU trace system will make things difficult - but Spain like Portugal is very dependent on tourism so.... France will check your time limits for sure - so easy with passport stamps and tracing computer system... Greece will probably do everything they can to encourage tourism - cruising boats but only time will tell- in my opinion nobody knows how it will all work out in the end

The separate tracing systems get centralised later this year in time for ETIAS roll out. One of the stated aims is making the 90 in 180 automatically assigned. It will automatically flag up the fact that you are an overstayer or have overstayed in the past.

 

[syvictoria]

The separate tracing systems get centralised later this year in time for ETIAS roll out. One of the stated aims is making the 90 in 180 automatically assigned. It will automatically flag up the fact that you are an overstayer or have overstayed in the past.

Sadly this could really be a game changer.

 

[Graham376]

Sadly this could really be a game changer.

There could be a fair number of game changers as the EU at the moment seem to be doing their best in impose draconian restrictions particularly on trade. Unfortunately, with likely Covid restrictions for the foreseeable future adding to new movement restrictions, it's going to be a confusing summer. We still have no idea what reporting will be necessary when sailing between different countries and whether we'll have to use official ports of entry or can just drop anchor as previously. Hopefully by next year, most things will be clearer and we will know what we can/can not get away with.

 

[st599]

There could be a fair number of game changers as the EU at the moment seem to be doing their best in impose draconian restrictions particularly on trade. Unfortunately, with likely Covid restrictions for the foreseeable future adding to new movement restrictions, it's going to be a confusing summer. We still have no idea what reporting will be necessary when sailing between different countries and whether we'll have to use official ports of entry or can just drop anchor as previously. Hopefully by next year, most things will be clearer and we will know what we can/can not get away with.

They're implementing what the UK agreed to. WTO most favoured nation rules don't allow for anything else. If it's not explicitly changed in the FTA we signed, then we get the same treatment as all other countries.

RYA have already given out the port of entry requirements for most of the states near the UK.

 

[Graham376]

RYA have already given out the port of entry requirements for most of the states near the UK.

We have a particular problem which will be interesting for those based on or visiting Algarve and SW Spain. The Guadiana river national boundary is policed jointly by Portuguese and Spanish officials on the same boat. When on anchor, it's normal practice to dinghy ashore to either Spain or Portugal or both, in the same day. Will be interesting to see how it's handled. Even using the pontoons in either Spain or Portugal, there's regular cross border traffic.

 

[Sea Devil]

ps, I understand folk, who have residency in an EU country, are permitted to discount their travel time to and from their host country against their 90 day allowance.

How big is the discount allowance

Who knows - how long is a bit of string

1 day in 1 day out

 

[billskip]

We have a particular problem which will be interesting for those based on or visiting Algarve and SW Spain. The Guadiana river national boundary is policed jointly by Portuguese and Spanish officials on the same boat. When on anchor, it's normal practice to dinghy ashore to either Spain or Portugal or both, in the same day. Will be interesting to see how it's handled. Even using the pontoons in either Spain or Portugal, there's regular cross border traffic.

But surely that is no different to walking across a bridge or boarder,the problem is for those that can't transit a boarder that easily, eg those in Balearc islands or Canaries