latest if anyone interested

[StewartC]

Re: perceptive

Hi John,

I can't go into specifics (off the record, etc...), but I can assure you that my interpretation of HMRC's guidance is accurate.

Some points:

You will not have to keep records if you fill up with 60/40 (unless you're travelling overseas, when it would be smart to be able to prove you bought your fuel in the UK).

The method of declaration is incredibly easy. You can make the declaration on the back of a fag packet if you like, depending on the whims of the vendor, who then sticks this declaration in his records. The declaration is not sent to HMRC, but may be seen during the vendor's regular audit.

The fuel vendor will <u>not</u> be responsible for making sure the declarations are accurate. And they are not punishable for supplying fuel to a boater that makes an inaccurate declaration.

The only uncertainty over Blue Fin is whether she can be classified as a commercial craft. If it's decided that she's not, then we'll absolutely be filling up with 60/40 fuel.

I can't stress this enough: This is a headache for HMRC. They know it's almost impossible to measure how much diesel is used for different applications. They've chosen the path of least resistance and will not be chasing down people that declare 60/40.

One caveat, however: The above is based on conversations I've had with people close to the negotiations, and is the ideal outcome for all concerned. The early stages of the transition may be a bit bumpy, and the result outlined here may take some time to become the norm.

Stewart

P.S. More info in November's MBM (Had to get the plug in).

 

[TrueBlue]

Absolutely -

[ QUOTE ]
Bit of a conundrum then?
Me, I'm going 60/40, remember no receipts have to be kept and whilst I'm not trying to find a loop hole or diddle the tax man, the way I see it is, as I have previously said, declare 60/40 and no questions will be asked.
I am sure I am not alone in this assumption and would appreciate more information or opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

All we have to date is the press release, I've not had anything further (though was promised the official word when released), and one dealer I asked over the weekend had not had any instructions either.

Taking the press release as it stands it's quite clear, 60/40 is the expected norm and for that split you are not required to keep any records.

That last word may be the key - "records" could be interpreted to mean no calculation of your justification of the "standard split".

Otherwise if you want more, then you should prepare your justification <span style="color:blue"> if asked, by a Revenue officer</span>.

The CE part of HMRC are clearly focused on getting the money in, as I understand it, there is little gain in them chasing minor misdelcarations, unless it becomes widespread, and talking to those who have been naughty on Red in road vehicles, they merely fine and recover the lost duty - at the first instance.

We've been tipped the wink that 60/40 is "reasonable". So be grateful for small mercies. The other words in the statement are to make the scheme stand up PC wise. After all, if you're not obliged to make or keep any records, how could you be sure that 60/40 was not fair and reasonable for your vessel?

edit: poo! - written before Stewart's reply, so not a meaningless copy, both confirm the issue as my source is on one side and his the other.

 

[Sneds]

Re: Absolutely -

Ah!

Thats what I thought

Good compromise IMO /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Lotus_John]

Re: perceptive

>>>The above is based on conversations I've had with people close to the negotiations, and is the ideal outcome for all concerned. <<<

Stewart, Thanks for that, I welcome your reassurances although I cannot accept that it is the IDEAL as adding 11ppl to the current price to bring us to the EU minimum would have avoided 18 months of negotiations and an additional 25ppl in tax and vat as well as well as confusion and uncertainty for industry and boaters alike.

Whilst celebrating how much better it is than expected lets not lose sight of how much better it should have been.

I look forward to seeing the fine print, especially with regard to the records collected by RCDO’s and whether these are passed to HMRC or merely retained in case an auditor wants to have a look. I would have thought that HMRC who expect the RCDO to collect a variable tax and vat revenue on their behalf would require some supporting evidence that the payment is correct. Why I am currently required to provide my name, address, and boat details when I buy fuel?

I look forward to the November issue and hope that it will be clear by then how Holland will respond to our plans.

If HMRC were truly being nice, why would they not grant ‘Blue Fin’ commercial status? You should be able to claim all the tax back under the ‘marine voyages’ tax legislation…..I am going to take up fishing!

 

[SolentPhill]

RYA motor cruising projects manager, who said: "If you have an open RIB, you will have to declare 100% propulsion use for the diesel you buy. Boats with generators will be able to declare a higher proportion of diesel for domestic use and pay less duty on that proportion. Boats that live in marinas will struggle to prove that they are using a huge amount of diesel for anything other than propulsion.

However, yachts on passage that run the engine for a few hours to charge batteries may declare that diesel used for charging batteries is for domestic, non-propulsion use and pay the lower rate of duty."

erm RYA negotiated this well look after ones own here then they did alright.

 

[prussell]

Has any one done the sums?
Maths was not my strong subject at school - but

I currently pay 75ppl for red
According to the artical in MBM on 12th September
There is 9.69 p of tax and vat atr 5% included in my 75p
if you follow the figures and take off 5% vat then 9.69 p tax then add 50.4 p tax and vat at 17.5% you arrive at £1.32 ppl

Please prove me wrong because if im right then it will be cheaper to go to the garrage and buy white at £1.17
Is this a cynical ploy to get us to use ULSP and save the environment?!!

 

[TrueBlue]

You\'re right - but also wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Has any one done the sums?
Maths was not my strong subject at school - but

I currently pay 75ppl for red
According to the article in MBM on 12th September
There is 9.69 p of tax and vat at 5% included in my 75p
if you follow the figures and take off 5% vat then 9.69 p tax then add 50.4 p tax and vat at 17.5% you arrive at £1.32 ppl

Please prove me wrong because if I'm right then it will be cheaper to go to the garage and buy white at £1.17
Is this a cynical ploy to get us to use ULSP and save the environment?!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I made it 131.75, but that's not my point:-
Using your figures
Your current buy price = 75p
Less VAT = 71.42p
Less duty (of 9.69p) = 61.73p base cost.

So at full duty your fuel is (61.63 + 50.40) x 1.75 = £131.75
My current buy for ULS Diesel (Asda, High Wycombe) was £1.189

I suspect that HMRC saw that as a huge spread and would encourage folks to fill cans with road fuel, etc, etc. Not a good idea.

so at 60/40 - no questions asked, you would pay
60% x £1.31.75 = 79.05p
40% x £0.75 = 30p
79.05p + 30p = £1.05 per litre

definitely more cost effective to take the standard "offer" from your marina, and not cart jerry cans around so -
<ul type="square">
The environment is protected,
EU letter of the regulations is followed both in terms of use and minimum duty,
HMRC "suggeted split" is followed,
everyone is happy - provided you don't raise your nose above the parapet, and say "Oh, but -"
[/list]

For once the UK is using EU law with it's eyes open, perhaps manipulating it to get a reasonable situation, rather then the perceived blindly following.

Enough, already.

 

[adrianm]

[ QUOTE ]
Now consider also that HMRC was under no obligation to even give us this 40% allowance. They could have said 100% full duty, and told us to get on with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or seeing that red diesel is totally illegal to use in a road vehicle they could have treated private boats in the same way as private planes...

 

[whisper]

Thanks Stewart,

Out of interest, can you tell me where it is stated by the EU that the 2 fuels are the same and what are the physical parameters of "gas oil"?

Of course the 60:40 split is better than 100:0 but the way it is "apparently" organised leaves it horribly open-ended.

I'm off boating again at the end of the month so will be interested to see what the fuel suppliers make of it /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

I plan to find out what the comercial barges in the river do, they are used to 000s of litres on commercial accounts which will remain exempt and like hard cash for private sales.

 

[SolentPhill]

what is a comm boat?

if someone takes people fishing like the ones in Brighton £6 for 3 hrs are they commercial??

 

[Sneds]

Commercial?

 

[philip_stevens]

Re: Absolutely -

http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20080910131213ymnews.html

 

[SolentPhill]

Re: Absolutely -

surely thats discrimination? how many times do we see these without sails and how many times with? at least 50/50,

 

[Lotus_John]

Re: Absolutely -

>>>>surely thats discrimination? how many times do we see these without sails and how many times with? at least 50/50, <<<

I think for VAT at 5% purposes we can all accept the title 'yachtsmen'.

It is strange how red and white fuel can be considered different for VAT purposes but not for Tax purposes.......still don't knock it, they only need to find a way of removing another 16PPL and we can get the tax increase down to the EU minimum.

 

[adrieldenzel]

Clean-diesel vehicles are expected to dominate the 2009 US vehicle market. In regard to this calculation, automakers are racing to convert their old technology into a fuel-saving sensation.