Latest Brexit Scare

Hurricane said:
One of the procedures that our marina operate is a designated dockmaster walks round every day recording what boats are present and who is on board.
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Yes, I’ve noticed a guy coming around in the evening with a clip board. I guess he’s doing the same, so should be on record. Also on record will be if I have exceeded my 90/180 limit!!!! (Although unlikely in my case)
 
When Croatia joined the EU it was effectively the same requirement for proof of the boats whereabouts ... I needed to prove my boat was in Croatia overnight on the day of accession to the EU to qualify for zero-rated VAT. I have no idea if the authorities checked my marina receipts with the marina records, but my marina was doing the customs supervision on the boat anyway as it was on 18 month temporary admission.

My paid up invoices for my marina berth were accepted as proof and after a visit to a lawyer and a bit of paperwork, I got my VAT paid paperwork and my boat went from VAT unpaid and on temporary admission to EU Union Goods with VAT effectively paid.

Going in reverse, I would expect the same to apply - a paid marina invoice covering the time over New Year should be adequate to retain EU Union Goods status.

People with boats in the Med will effectively be doing two things on 31.12.2021 .... ensuring their assets are recognised as Union Goods (VAT paid in the EU) and starting the returning goods relief clock in the UK (If the UK decides to insist on the RGR rules for returning private craft).

Having been through the whole process in reverse when Croatia acceded to the EU I don't really think anyone with a VAT paid boat in the Med will have much to worry about - while each individual country may have its own maritime rules, rules on import and VAT are universal.

Those with boats in marinas which also perform customs supervision for Temporary Admission of non-VAT paid boats will most likely find that their marina is in contact with the customs and excise authorities anyway. When I took out the contract with my marina on a non-VAT paid boat they took copies of the temporary admission paperwork and explained that they shared information with the authorities. That was in 2011.

I would imagine that post 2021 there will be a flurry of interest in the VAT status of UK registered boats, but that those who can prove VAT paid will have little to worry about. Even if you can't prove VAT paid a Brit will be able to switch the boat to 18 month temporary admission and still incur no VAT or import duties. My guess is that any activity regarding British flagged vessels will be to identify those on temporary admission, those with provable VAT status and a marina invoice will be uninteresting to the authorities.

I would expect the most activity to be around the ports within easy reach of the UK as there will be money to be had from UK boats that "sneak" into the EU or don't follow whatever rules are decided upon - a la Red Diesel fiasco.
 
We have cctv which the public can access .
I think the clip board dock Walker is checking for unauthorised , kinda seek ins , and conversely if a paid up short period boat has departed on its last day not hung around for a few extra freebies etc .
Never really thought about the future VAT authentication post Brexit .
Been “ done “ 5 times in 15 years in the Med
3 by Fr Douanes , they never asked about VAT
2x by Italian Guardia Finanza and yes they go through the paperwork with a fine toothed comb .
So thinking aloud now as I write ....this means we are on the Italian system .Every thing theses days is electronic pads / lap tops .
One GF check was at sea they pulled me up blue light etc , the 2 nd was a marina sting , they arrived in force and went through the pontoon inc our red duster boat .
Beauty of foreign reg systems , like IT is everything is pretty transparent and the local port authority, Roma is my case has the correct paper trail .

Don’t know how keen the ES are on any checks inc VAT .
Presume being near Africa there’s a greater proportion of VAT free boats nipping over every 18 M ? , so it follows officialdom might check up on this ?
What’s the experiences of the EP lot on here ? Re being “ done “ ?
 
Baggywrinkle said:
When Croatia joined the EU it was effectively the same requirement for proof of the boats whereabouts ... I needed to prove my boat was in Croatia overnight on the day of accession to the EU to qualify for zero-rated VAT. I have no idea if the authorities checked my marina receipts with the marina records, but my marina was doing the customs supervision on the boat anyway as it was on 18 month temporary admission.

My paid up invoices for my marina berth were accepted as proof and after a visit to a lawyer and a bit of paperwork, I got my VAT paid paperwork and my boat went from VAT unpaid and on temporary admission to EU Union Goods with VAT effectively paid.

Going in reverse, I would expect the same to apply - a paid marina invoice covering the time over New Year should be adequate to retain EU Union Goods status.

People with boats in the Med will effectively be doing two things on 31.12.2021 .... ensuring their assets are recognised as Union Goods (VAT paid in the EU) and starting the returning goods relief clock in the UK (If the UK decides to insist on the RGR rules for returning private craft).

Having been through the whole process in reverse when Croatia acceded to the EU I don't really think anyone with a VAT paid boat in the Med will have much to worry about - while each individual country may have its own maritime rules, rules on import and VAT are universal.

Those with boats in marinas which also perform customs supervision for Temporary Admission of non-VAT paid boats will most likely find that their marina is in contact with the customs and excise authorities anyway. When I took out the contract with my marina on a non-VAT paid boat they took copies of the temporary admission paperwork and explained that they shared information with the authorities. That was in 2011.

I would imagine that post 2021 there will be a flurry of interest in the VAT status of UK registered boats, but that those who can prove VAT paid will have little to worry about. Even if you can't prove VAT paid a Brit will be able to switch the boat to 18 month temporary admission and still incur no VAT or import duties. My guess is that any activity regarding British flagged vessels will be to identify those on temporary admission, those with provable VAT status and a marina invoice will be uninteresting to the authorities.

I would expect the most activity to be around the ports within easy reach of the UK as there will be money to be had from UK boats that "sneak" into the EU or don't follow whatever rules are decided upon - a la Red Diesel fiasco.
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Lots of good information in your post - thanks for posting it and your thoughts.
 
Hurricane said:
Well well well
Thats very interesting
I thought you had to visit an non-EU country.
I don't think it is much use to me but I have a friend who is currently buying a new boat.
A VAT free solution might be very interesting to him.
Thanks for posting
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What happens re the VAT paid/not Pai and residency rules for those with both a British and EU country passport? So for example if you say buy or own a VAT non paid boat in the EU and go through the 18 months manoevre to avoid the VAT, are a UK citizen living in the UK and hold a irish passport? note that you would not have an issue with the 90/180 I assume via the EU country passport.
 
st599 said:
This was covered on the recent RYA Brexit forum.

The ICC is a UN document that is recognised by signatory states. Not all EU states are signatories.
The Yachtmaster is recognised by the MCA and valid on all British-flagged vessels. Other states may choose to accept it and may allow you to swap it for a local ticket, or not.
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Just for a bit of perspective, I've been boating in the Med for 18yrs and never been asked for any kind of certificate of competence. I've been stopped and boarded for many other reasons but those have been for safety equipment, passport, insurance and navigational licence checks (Croatia and Sardinia). I do have an ICC on board somewhere and I suppose I better find it

Yes I do think its a good idea though to get your Med marina to confirm in writing that your boat was in that location on Dec 31st to establish its EU VAT status
 
Hooligan said:
What happens re the VAT paid/not Pai and residency rules for those with both a British and EU country passport? So for example if you say buy or own a VAT non paid boat in the EU and go through the 18 months manoevre to avoid the VAT, are a UK citizen living in the UK and hold a irish passport? note that you would not have an issue with the 90/180 I assume via the EU country passport.
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The way I understand it all .
The VAT “ manoeuvre “ can be be done irrespective of the owners passport , so none EU or EU .
The EU Irish PP means you can continue play the full fat FoM card as you have been doing up to 1/1/21 .
 
Hooligan said:
What happens re the VAT paid/not Pai and residency rules for those with both a British and EU country passport? So for example if you say buy or own a VAT non paid boat in the EU and go through the 18 months manoevre to avoid the VAT, are a UK citizen living in the UK and hold a irish passport? note that you would not have an issue with the 90/180 I assume via the EU country passport.
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I think you are mixing up your citizenship with the boat.
AFAIK, these are two separate things.
The boat has its status and you have yours.

I think you have also mixed up Citizenship and Residency.
In your case, I think case, you are an Irish Citizen, Resident in the UK.
I notice that Ireland didn't sign up to Schengen so my question in posts above stands for Ireland as well.
However, Ireland isn't in the list in the Schengen Eligibility Checker Schengen Visa Eligibility Checker - Do you qualify to apply for a Schengen visa from the UK?
So I really don't know if the 90/180 day Schengen rule applies to Ireland.
 
DavidJ said:
Is the 90/180 days a Brexit thing or has it always been there but not enforced?
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The 90/180 thing has always been there for the Schengen Area and was applicable to anyone in the EU as a tourist or visitor from a non-EU country. Some got a Schengen visa waiver, some had to apply for a Schengen Visa and it depended on your nationality.

It was never relevant to Brits while we were in the EU. It will be relevant to Brits after 01.01.2021.

Here's an American take on the 90/180 rules ...

Your Guide to (Legally) Staying in Europe for More Than 90 Days

.. Brits without dual citizenship of, or residency in an EU country will be subject to the same rules.

Residency of an EU country means the rules don't apply in that country, but still apply to the rest of the Schengen Area.
 
jordanbasset said:
If you have an Irish passport you have freedom of movement throughout the EU, (Schengen and non Schengen countries, same as we have until the end of the year) there is no limit of 90 days in every 180
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Can you show (a link) to an official regulation that details that there is no limit of 90 days in a Schengen country to a visitor from a non-Schengen EU country?
 
Hurricane said:
Same as I said to jordanbasset, can you show the regulation/waiver that confirms this?
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UK citizens have enjoyed freedom of movement in Europe ever since the country joined the EU in 1973 (known then as the European Economic Area), but this is set to end after the conclusion of the Brexit transition period in 2020. .....

....
At the moment, there is no need for a European visa waiver for British citizens. UK citizens can move freely and even work in other countries in the region. They only need to show their UK passport to be able to enter any EU country.

The free movement of people is one of the EU’s key principles. Once the UK is no longer a part of the union’s regulatory framework, British people will no longer be able to move around the continent as before.
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How Will ETIAS & Brexit Affect UK Citizens?

The Schengen 90/180 day rule. Why all the fuss?

For the last 25 years UK nationals who have a second home in Europe and people who have travelled within the EU for extended periods have been able to visit with very few limitations.

In January 2021 this will radically change with the introduction of the Schengen 90/180-day rule. The 90/180-day rule will impose life changing restrictions on travel in Europe for 1.2 million British citizens living in the EU and 500,000 British people who own second homes in the EU and who live in the UK. These changes will reduce access to their second home and limit travel plans.

From 2021, anyone wishing to spend two months in Europe during the summer, say July and August, then under the 90/180-day rule they will be limited to stays totalling less than 4 weeks between March and June and totalling less than 4 weeks between September and November. This is detailed here.

If they are a resident of the UK and they wish to stay longer in their second home or travel extensively they will require a visa which can be problematic. This is detailed here.
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180 days visa free - Schengen - Why the fuss

180daysvisa-free.org is the name used by a small group of individuals actively lobbying for 180 days of visa-free travel to the EU after 31st December 2020. We were drawn together by a common concern about accessing our second homes in Europe and how the Schengen 90/180 day rule would adversely affect us. We were spurred into action in March 2020 by a letter (Annex AA para 3) implying that the Government did not have plans to negotiate travel rights. In the two months since the group’s inception, we have helped others to have civic conversations with their MP. Some 360 letters have been sent to one third of all MPs. In addition, those who own second homes in France have contacted over 60 French Députés to seek support for our proposal.
  1. After the end of the transition period, UK citizens will be subject to the Schengen 90/180 day rule when visiting those EU member states that form part of the Schengen Zone. As a result, they will be limited to a cumulative total of 90 days in any 180 day rolling period. This rule will have a negative impact on a wide range of UK citizens including tourists, business people, students and second home owners.
  2. We believe the Government is failing to protect the right of UK citizens to travel in Europe after the end of the transition period. Currently, the intention of HMG is to offer EU citizens twice the length of visa-free travel in the UK than the EU is offering UK citizens. EU citizens will be able to come to the UK for 6 months at a time whilst UK citizens will only be able to visit the EU for up to 90 days at a time without a visa. They then have to leave the EU and cannot return for another 90 days.
  3. The EU Draft Text on a Future Arrangement refers on page 171 to a minimum of 90 days visa-free travel which implies there is some room for maneuver, yet nowhere on any agenda, or in any Government positioning paper, can we find reference to tourist travel mobility being the subject of further negotiation.
  4. We note that the UK Immigration Bill proposes to treat EU and non-EU visitors alike and allow visa-free visits to the UK of up to 6 months. In doing so, the Government is accepting a situation that will give UK citizens less rights and freedoms to visit the EU than is being afforded EU citizens visiting the UK.
  5. We therefore ask the Government to a) address the inequity of the current deal being offered by the EU; b) place tourist travel mobility firmly on the agenda for future EU-UK negotiations; c) consider the proposal for 180 days in any rolling 360 days as a solution that reciprocates HMG’s six months visa-free travel offer to EU citizens whilst respecting aspirations for border security.
  6. We are of the opinion that the Government’s position on tourist travel has been inconsistent during the period March 2019 to June 2020. We cannot find any tangible evidence of any commitment by HMG to robustly negotiate this matter with the EU. We have set this out in detail in Annex AA.
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https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/6891/html/
 
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Hurricane said:
Can you show (a link) to an official regulation that details that there is no limit of 90 days in a Schengen country to a visitor from a non-Schengen EU country?
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  • For stays of under three months: the only requirement for Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country.
  • For stays of over three months: EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities.
 
From what was said at the RYA cruising conference in January, the EU were open to a 6 month visa free process open to all UK citizens, provided the UK reciprocated. The UK refused and offered a 6 month Visa open to selected EU citizens. So we are where we are.
 
Hurricane said:
I think you are mixing up your citizenship with the boat.
AFAIK, these are two separate things.
The boat has its status and you have yours.

I think you have also mixed up Citizenship and Residency.
In your case, I think case, you are an Irish Citizen, Resident in the UK.
I notice that Ireland didn't sign up to Schengen so my question in posts above stands for Ireland as well.
However, Ireland isn't in the list in the Schengen Eligibility Checker Schengen Visa Eligibility Checker - Do you qualify to apply for a Schengen visa from the UK?
So I really don't know if the 90/180 day Schengen rule applies to Ireland.
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It is my firm view that any holder of a passport of a country that is within the EU has a right to move freely and work in any country in the EU. This applies to the UK until Dec 31 2020. Schengen is not a concept that applies to nationals of EU countries. Schengen is an agreement by certain EU countries that allows any visitor to that country to pass through each other's borders. So if you were a Russian citizen for example, and got a visa for Spain, you would have full access to Schengen countries but NOT non Schengen countries within the EU. Post December 31 2020 UK citizens (this is not the same as a UK resident as a UK resident could include a French citizen etc) will not be allowed to move or work freely. I am both a UK citizen ie passport holder and a UK resident. I happen fortunately to have an Irish Grandparent so have an Irish passport which allows me to avoid the freedom of movement restrictions. I was just curious how dual citizenship effectively works with the whole issue of VAT in the EU post 2020 and the 180 month rule but agree with you that the status of the boat is separate to mine. I thought that all the info re that is very useful
 
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