Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Oh yes - I've corrected it now - thanks for pointing it out.
Latest Brexit Scare
- Thread starter Hurricane
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volvopaul
Well-Known Member
If that’s the case then that’s just knackered the scope for UK sellers as many many boats have gone abroad this year , maybe the over seas buyers knew something we didn’t on the VAT / tax status , maybe they are privy to what’s actually going off unlike the mushroom farm government we are under.
If that’s the case then the UK brokerage market will suffer badly from next year as the audience will be slashed , maybe prices will stabilise to a level of 3/4 years ago as everything is still stupidly silly , I cannot believe the price of boats balanced on the condition and survey results I have looked over this year ,
The boats I’ve looked over would have been seriously rejected on condition yet this year are snapped up in any condition to get on the water , no doubt all because people cannot holiday abroad , yes it’s one life live it .
I should be say in Villamoura marina now but sadly our holiday by Jet2 was cancelled , if this COVID thing is still here by spring next year We will definitely be arranging our holidays with other operators in a view to guarantee a decent holiday , the quarantine rule will have to be dealt with after .
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I used to do it with my VAT unpaid boat in Croatia .... it's common practice for boats belonging to owners who are not citizens or residents of the country where their boat is berthed - the Ports of Entry staff and police are used to it. Your boat is supporting their economy, even if VAT hasn't been paid so they are happy to facilitate the Temporary Admission of boats.
It used to take one day out of my holiday every year. You report to the port of entry with boat, papers and passports and "check out" which officially records that the boat and crew has left - to do it properly you should then head directly out of the 12 mile zone into international waters. Then do a u-turn, hoist your yellow flag, and head back in and re-apply for temporary import. Some people remain in the territorial waters but this is a risk, especially if caught at anchor - but lots of people do this and don't get caught.
To be safe, record your GPS track and when re-entering tell them you are coming in from "open sea" and before that you exited their territorial waters (you must leave enough time between exit and entry for this to be possible). This always worked for me - whatever you do, don't lie because the consequences if found out are not worth it - they are perfectly within their rights to refuse re-entry.
I found this out the first time I re-entered and tried to obfuscate where I had come from by being a bit vague - I thought I was gaming the system by exporting and importing within a day - they turned very serious until I explained I had bought the boat VAT free, exported it, changed it's name and registration and now wanted to base it in a Croatian Marina under temporary admission - they then smiled, lightened up, and processed all the paperwork with no further problems.
You don't have to do it at the end of the 18 months, you can do it whenever convenient before the 18 months are up and restart the Temporary Admission clock - this really is common practice and should be no problem in the Med.
This will keep you within the law - there are many who don't do this and have never been caught or checked - at the end of the day it's up to you to set the level of risk you are comfortable with.
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Paul, I think you are saying that you didn't know that the EU could insist that boats from the UK would need to be imported into the EU after Brexit.
If this actually happens (which is quite likely) it has been common knowledge for a year or so.
Have you seen any posts on the T2L documentation?
I believe that the T2L is part of the paperwork that you would get if you imported a "good" into the EU.
HMRC has been validating T2L documents (and I think they still are) because currently they have EU powers to do so.
Well, they certainly did last year when they validated my T2L
The T2L was also well documented by the RYA with extensive notes on how to get your T2L
So, to recap, a T2L form confirms that your boat is "currently" an EU good.
After Brexit, it is arguable that the T2L will be enough to prove that it still is an EU good.
So, I am looking at getting some kind of documentary proof that my boat was in the EU on the night of the 31st Dec 2020
With this proof and a T2L, I believe that I could argue that the boat is an EU Good and doesn't need to be imported.
If anyone wants to get an HMRC validated T2L for their EU boat, let me know and I will post the details.
It might be too late but it doesn't cost anything other than a self addressed stamped envelope.
RobbieW
Well-Known Member
I think you're wrong on this but only because, if correct, its been widely flouted for many years by boaters, motor homers and second homers with no action taken. I had a quick look for the terms of the UKs (& Irelands) opt out of Schengen but am finding nothing definitive on that. It was certainly popularly understood that Brits could settle anywhere in the EU and many have/did, its only recently that issues of residency/naturalisation have come to the fore.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Well well well
Thats very interesting
I thought you had to visit an non-EU country.
I don't think it is much use to me but I have a friend who is currently buying a new boat.
A VAT free solution might be very interesting to him.
Thanks for posting
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
No I hadn’t taken much notice until your post , I know some years ago they deemed a pre 1985 built boat vat paid as it would have been difficult to source both dealer and vat history on that particular sale going back that far.
I don’t understand why UK HMRC will now alter the rules when for example a UK supplied boat moved a few years ago that was UK supplied with a UK dealer vat paid invoice now going to be expected to pay again just because the UK is not going to be part of the EU , I suppose it’s going to be the same if you Imported let’s say from the States, the bit I don’t agree with is if the boat was originally supplied in the UK , or have I got that bit wrong and it will still be vat free on return to the UK ?
Either way it’s going to be a right mess and will definitely put people off buying boats abroad and here if there are further Tax complications .
jrudge
Well-Known Member
Taking a boat out of the EU is hassle - having done it, but your perspective depends on the boat. If you have a £2m new Princess the VAT is £400,000. Getting a skipper to take the boat to Algeria for the day including fuel is going to come in at less than £10k and you have to do nothing. Logistically the 18 months causes hassle as one time it is Summer and the next time it is winter but such is life.
Each person will have their own level as to when it is worth the hassle. Even on a £500k boat the vat is £100k.
Hurricane yes it is a rolling 180 day period - look back how many days - approaching 90 - leave. This is real for the likes of you and I. I regularly spend more than 3 months in 6 in Mallorca from circa May to October. The solution is to buy a house in Spain for >E500k and they give you residency without the need to be fiscally resident ( as long as you dont exceed 182 days in the country) which you dont want to do as
( a) your boat will need to be Spanish registered - this may well trigger matriculation tax - I dont know
(b) you will need a Spanish boat license
(c) a Spanish driving licence
(d) most importantly you will become subject to their tax system and the wealth tax is material to many and not something many with large boats ( who by default have a few quid or you would not be happy dropping £500k / £1m or whatever on a toy you use in a foreign country that costs a fortune to keep there!
Each person will have their own level as to when it is worth the hassle. Even on a £500k boat the vat is £100k.
Hurricane yes it is a rolling 180 day period - look back how many days - approaching 90 - leave. This is real for the likes of you and I. I regularly spend more than 3 months in 6 in Mallorca from circa May to October. The solution is to buy a house in Spain for >E500k and they give you residency without the need to be fiscally resident ( as long as you dont exceed 182 days in the country) which you dont want to do as
( a) your boat will need to be Spanish registered - this may well trigger matriculation tax - I dont know
(b) you will need a Spanish boat license
(c) a Spanish driving licence
(d) most importantly you will become subject to their tax system and the wealth tax is material to many and not something many with large boats ( who by default have a few quid or you would not be happy dropping £500k / £1m or whatever on a toy you use in a foreign country that costs a fortune to keep there!
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
OK - 2 points here
1 - The way that the 90/180 day rule works (i.e. 90 days in any rolling 180 days)
2 - Which I think you are commenting on - yes I agree its been widely flouted but I am looking for firm evidence. For starters, have a look at the Schengen Eligibity Checker here Schengen Visa Eligibility Checker - Do you qualify to apply for a Schengen visa from the UK?
Particularly - run the checker as a UK Citizen and you will get this answer:-
You can enter and remain in the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days within a 180 days period, without a need to obtain a Schengen visa.
This is Now and not after 31st Dec 2020
jrudge
Well-Known Member
Quarantine when you come home is one thing - but what really stuffs it is if you have to Quarantine on arrival in Spain. Given we are a member of the happy family until the end of the year the EU wants to promote free movement where possible. Once we leave I think they will have the equivalent of the " Up Yours Delors" type headline we once ran to show the English who is boss.
jrudge
Well-Known Member
Rules regardless it is widely flouted as we have little if any checks on entry and exit to the EU.
This WILL change on 1/1/21 and if you over stay there are consequences ( like not letting you back in). I have had crew for years who are non EU and if they over stay they are in trouble. and even the happy go lucky 25 year old is very sure to remain in his 90 days.
RobbieW
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that VAT is a transaction, rather than an asset, tax. So if the conditions are created where a new transaction takes place, the tax is payable - UK boat owners on extended trips outside the EU were theoretically liable after 3 years but I dont think there are are recorded instances of those owners telling HMRC about it
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Yep - I agree with everything you say there
But I think we could adjust our plans.
I hope JOHN100156 doesn't mind me posting this little graph that he posted on SCMCHAT - our marina forum
This will outline how he might spend his time:-
For me the 90/180 rule isn't a huge problem - just a nuisance.
For you with kids in the summer holidays, I can see more of an issue.
But, imagine that you find the middle of the Med summer months too hot but you like do early and late season boating.
You could do a 6 week period in spring/early summer and another 6 week one in early summer/autumn.
Remember that the 180 days is a "rolling" period.
In the latter period, as you add days to the end of the "rolling 180 day" period, you would be removing them from the beginning of the "rolling 180 day period".
If you see what I mean.
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Yep - I believe that you are correct that VAT is a tax on a transaction.My understanding is that VAT is a transaction, rather than an asset, tax. So if the conditions are created where a new transaction takes place, the tax is payable - UK boat owners on extended trips outside the EU were theoretically liable after 3 years but I dont think there are are recorded instances of those owners telling HMRC about it
However, people talk about VAT being due when (I think) they actually mean "import duty" us due.
And the import duty seems to be calculated like VAT
I'm no expert - I wish JFM were here to "set us right"
Bouba
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that it will be easier for expats in South of Spain than those in the South of France. A quick trip to North Africa or possibly even Gibraltar for Spanish based boats and a much longer trip for the Frenchies.
John100156
Well-Known Member
So my berthing Contract runs out in Spain end of October, if I were to run my EU/VAT paid status boat down to Gib for a few months, before 31 Dec 20, and then return to ES waters in say Feb/Mar would that be regarded as imported into Spain and then start my 3Y RGR?
Clancy Moped
Well-Known Member
On point (b) I think if hold YM ticket that's ok, but certainly not just an ICC.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Yea - but as I see it, you would then need to import it into the EU and pay the tax to get it into EU waters.
IMO, it is best left in the EU where you will get better use of it.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
I think you will find that the ICC is an RYA statement that you are qualified to drive a British Registered Vessel.
And in what jrudge outlines, the boat would have become Spanish registered thus coming under Spanish laws.
Clancy Moped
Well-Known Member
Yes, but a Yacht Master ticket is accepted.
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