Latest Brexit Scare

st599 said:
From what was said at the RYA cruising conference in January, the EU were open to a 6 month visa free process open to all UK citizens, provided the UK reciprocated. The UK refused and offered a 6 month Visa open to selected EU citizens. So we are where we are.
Click to expand...
Although the RYA is interesting, they aren't the gospel here.
 
Just for clarity, as a dual citizen of both UK and Germany it has some interesting implications ....

In the UK I am legally treated as a UK citizen, my German citizenship has no bearing on my status in the UK.
In Germany I am legally treated as a German citizen, my UK citizenship has no bearing on my status in Germany.

In all other countries I can be one or the other. On expat forums it has been suggested that I should travel on my German passport as a German citizen because the German consulates in foreign countries are rated as "more helpful" and "better" than the UK ones. I have no idea if this is true.

There is a downside to dual citizenship though ... if you do get into trouble in a foreign country (kidnapped in Somalia and held to ransom as an extreme example) there is a danger that your two governments may get embroiled in arguments as to who is actually responsible for you ... leaving you somewhat in Limbo until they sort it out.
 
Thanks to those who posted the above links.
So - to summarise (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Three issues due to Brexit that affect UK Citizens keeping their boats in the EU - particularly the Med
1 - The boat
2 - UK Citizens visiting their boats
3 - Taking kit to your boat in the Med

1.
It seems likely that boats already in the EU Med will retain their EU Goods status thus not attracting VAT/re import.
However boats in the EU returning to the UK after 31st December 2020 might need to be re-imported and pay VAT even if they had paid it previously.
Boats entering EU waters from the UK will be subject to import/VAT unless they opt for TA (18 month temporary import) rules.

2.
Until 31st December 2020, a UK Citizen can visit their boat EU boat as much as they like (Freedom of Movement legislation). This is always subject to the 183 day tax rules enforced by most countries.
It seems that until late 2022, UK Citizens will be allowed to do go to their EU Med boats for a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days rolling period. It isn't clear but I don't think a Schengen visa will be required.
During late 2022, the ETIAS system will be implemented. This will be an automated system like the ESTA system that the Americans use. ETIAS is a visa to enter Europe that lasts 3 years. It still only entitles you to 90 days in any 180 days. ETIAS will be linked to the airlines and ferry operators so that you won't be able to travel unless you have an ETIAS visa and (I suspect) a calculation of remaining eligible days will be made before you can travel.

3.
Goods transported to the boat could be subject to duty/VAT. It may be necessary to use a Carnet style system for the same goods going back and forth (tools etc).

I think that summarises it from my point of view.
Any comments?
 
Hurricane said:
Thanks to those who posted the above links.
So - to summarise (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Three issues due to Brexit that affect UK Citizens keeping their boats in the EU - particularly the Med
1 - The boat
2 - UK Citizens visiting their boats
3 - Taking kit to your boat in the Med

1.
It seems likely that boats already in the EU Med will retain their EU Goods status thus not attracting VAT/re import.
However boats in the EU returning to the UK after 31st December 2020 might need to be re-imported and pay VAT even if they had paid it previously.
Boats entering EU waters from the UK will be subject to import/VAT unless they opt for TA (18 month temporary import) rules.

2.
Until 31st December 2020, a UK Citizen can visit their boat EU boat as much as they like (Freedom of Movement legislation). This is always subject to the 183 day tax rules enforced by most countries.
It seems that until late 2022, UK Citizens will be allowed to do go to their EU Med boats for a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days rolling period. It isn't clear but I don't think a Schengen visa will be required.
During late 2022, the ETIAS system will be implemented. This will be an automated system like the ESTA system that the Americans use. ETIAS is a visa to enter Europe that lasts 3 years. It still only entitles you to 90 days in any 180 days. ETIAS will be linked to the airlines and ferry operators so that you won't be able to travel unless you have an ETIAS visa and (I suspect) a calculation of remaining eligible days will be made before you can travel.

3.
Goods transported to the boat could be subject to duty/VAT. It may be necessary to use a Carnet style system for the same goods going back and forth (tools etc).

I think that summarises it from my point of view.
Any comments?
Click to expand...
If the boat is temporarily imported, you can only undertake running repairs, so if you do take goods to the boat, then you might affect it's tax status.
 
st599 said:
If the boat is temporarily imported, you can only undertake running repairs, so if you do take goods to the boat, then you might affect it's tax status.
Click to expand...

I assume you mean for a boat that is UK goods (UK VAT paid), temporarily admitted to the EU, and subject to the UKs RGR and 3 year export limit? (Because you cannot do anything major to increase the value of the boat outside the UK without invalidating any future claim to RGR).

If you have a VAT unpaid boat, and always intend to keep your boat in the EU under temporary admission, and reset the clock every 18 months, then you can do what you like to the boat without affecting its tax status.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
I assume you mean for a boat that is UK goods (UK VAT paid), temporarily admitted to the EU, and subject to the UKs RGR and 3 year export limit? (Because you cannot do anything major to increase the value of the boat outside the UK without invalidating any future claim to RGR).

If you have a VAT unpaid boat, and always intend to keep your boat in the EU under temporary admission, and reset the clock every 18 months, then you can do what you like to the boat without affecting its tax status.
Click to expand...
From all I have read - and it has been very useful - the best course of action if you want to be in the Med and are buying a boat seems VAT Unpaid using the temporary admission rules. Especially if you are in or near the Eastern Med ie can get to Montenegro, Turkey etc. Bit of a pain every 18months but saves a fortune and no impacts on tax status from improvements.
 
Hooligan said:
From all I have read - and it has been very useful - the best course of action if you want to be in the Med and are buying a boat seems VAT Unpaid using the temporary admission rules. Especially if you are in or near the Eastern Med ie can get to Montenegro, Turkey etc. Bit of a pain every 18months but saves a fortune and no impacts on tax status from improvements.
Click to expand...
Interesting to see how that pans out in terms of experienced Med guys buying new and newbies say turning up at SIBS cheque book in hand for a £1.5 M + , with a view to the Med .
Where they will gravitate to ?
My guess folks will tend to do what you say .
 
Really useful summary Hurricane

With reference to asking the marina to provide proof of the boat being in the EU on 31 Dec 2020. It would be useful for one more eloquent and legalistic than I to produce a few appropriate weasel words for the marina to use.
Any volunteers ?
 
Hooligan said:
From all I have read - and it has been very useful - the best course of action if you want to be in the Med and are buying a boat seems VAT Unpaid using the temporary admission rules. Especially if you are in or near the Eastern Med ie can get to Montenegro, Turkey etc. Bit of a pain every 18months but saves a fortune and no impacts on tax status from improvements.
Click to expand...
A big problem is convincing the boat builder or broker to supply a UK built boat without charging VAT.
The reason is if it all goes "tits up" or if you don't cary out what you say, the boat builder/broker is liable to HMRC for the VAT.
Remember VAT is a tax on a transaction so (say for example) you claimed you would export the boat and didn't, the supplier is liable to VAT.
They would, of course look to you to cover the VAT but that is a risk they might not like taking,
 
DavidJ said:
Really useful summary Hurricane

With reference to asking the marina to provide proof of the boat being in the EU on 31 Dec 2020. It would be useful for one more eloquent and legalistic than I to produce a few appropriate weasel words for the marina to use.
Any volunteers ?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that it needs to be too legalistic.
We don't want the marina to think they are getting too involved.
I think it is just a simple statement that they cannot refuse to sanction.
Something like "We xxx Marina confirm that xxx boat was in xxx marina overnight on the 31st December 2020"
 
Hooligan said:
From all I have read - and it has been very useful - the best course of action if you want to be in the Med and are buying a boat seems VAT Unpaid using the temporary admission rules. Especially if you are in or near the Eastern Med ie can get to Montenegro, Turkey etc. Bit of a pain every 18months but saves a fortune and no impacts on tax status from improvements.
Click to expand...

I used to do exactly this in Croatia before they joined the EU. Circumstances were a little different - Croatia was outside the EU but operating effectively the same rules, I am an EU citizen - the procedure however was the same.

I bought the boat in Split - VAT unpaid and had to export it the day I took delivery. This involved a morning at the Split customs dock filling out paperwork and paying various fees.
I then got my export paperwork stamped, the police checked our passports and we were stamped as exiting Croatia and let go with instructions to leave Croatian waters by the most direct route.

When out at sea I removed all traces of the previous registration, flag, name, vignette, charter company stickers etc. and replaced them with the UK SSR, a Red Ensign, and a new name - all set up in advance.

We sailed overnight, then just off Mali Losinj, we hoisted the yellow flag, the croatian courtesy flag, and headed into the customs dock in Mali Losinj (Port of Entry).

I wasn't entirely sure about the procedure or the legality so just presented the boat papers and said we were on our way to a berth in Pula but had to call in due to engine trouble - there was a bit of an oil leak from the engine. The police got suspicious and started asking more questions and weren't particularly friendly - I decided honesty was the best policy, so I told them everything, and showed them the customs paperwork from Split, the purchase contract with no VAT etc. They lightened up completely, completed my temporary admission paperwork, were very friendly, and let me leave the customs dock and tie up in the harbour with instructions to report to the harbour master the following day to sort out vignette etc.

The 18 month leave and re-enter procedure to reset the clock was completed in a day with a similar process - on each occasion from Pula, and again. no problems once they knew what I was up to. There were much bigger and more expensive boats than me doing the same thing.

I deliberately bought the boat in Croatia before accession because I knew boats over 8 years old would be imported into the EU without having to pay VAT. The only disadvantage was I couldn't visit any EU countries until this had happened.

In 2013, when Croatia joined the EU, there was a lot of delay and misinformation, and a special scheme where VAT on boats was lowered to 5% just before accession but this was just a Tax grab - I did nothing and waited - got the boat imported at zero VAT, it's now EU goods and I was happy. Just wish it had been a more expensive boat.

Being in the Eastern Med is a good idea because it allows you to easily leave the Schengen area to let the 90/180 rule reset - the boat is good for 18 months in the EU, just the owner won't be.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
I used to do exactly this in Croatia before they joined the EU. Circumstances were a little different - Croatia was outside the EU but operating effectively the same rules, I am an EU citizen - the procedure however was the same.

I bought the boat in Split - VAT unpaid and had to export it the day I took delivery. This involved a morning at the Split customs dock filling out paperwork and paying various fees.
I then got my export paperwork stamped, the police checked our passports and we were stamped as exiting Croatia and let go with instructions to leave Croatian waters by the most direct route.

When out at sea I removed all traces of the previous registration, flag, name, vignette, charter company stickers etc. and replaced them with the UK SSR, a Red Ensign, and a new name - all set up in advance.

We sailed overnight, then just off Mali Losinj, we hoisted the yellow flag, the croatian courtesy flag, and headed into the customs dock in Mali Losinj (Port of Entry).

I wasn't entirely sure about the procedure or the legality so just presented the boat papers and said we were on our way to a berth in Pula but had to call in due to engine trouble - there was a bit of an oil leak from the engine. The police got suspicious and started asking more questions and weren't particularly friendly - I decided honesty was the best policy, so I told them everything, and showed them the customs paperwork from Split, the purchase contract with no VAT etc. They lightened up completely, completed my temporary admission paperwork, were very friendly, and let me leave the customs dock and tie up in the harbour with instructions to report to the harbour master the following day to sort out vignette etc.

The 18 month leave and re-enter procedure to reset the clock was completed in a day with a similar process - on each occasion from Pula, and again. no problems once they knew what I was up to. There were much bigger and more expensive boats than me doing the same thing.

I deliberately bought the boat in Croatia before accession because I knew boats over 8 years old would be imported into the EU without having to pay VAT. The only disadvantage was I couldn't visit any EU countries until this had happened.

In 2013, when Croatia joined the EU, there was a lot of delay and misinformation, and a special scheme where VAT on boats was lowered to 5% just before accession but this was just a Tax grab - I did nothing and waited - got the boat imported at zero VAT, it's now EU goods and I was happy. Just wish it had been a more expensive boat.

Being in the Eastern Med is a good idea because it allows you to easily leave the Schengen area to let the 90/180 rule reset - the boat is good for 18 months in the EU, just the owner won't be.
Click to expand...
Its been really interesting reading your posts - thanks.
 
Hurricane said:
Thanks to those who posted the above links.
So - to summarise (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Three issues due to Brexit that affect UK Citizens keeping their boats in the EU - particularly the Med
1 - The boat
2 - UK Citizens visiting their boats
3 - Taking kit to your boat in the Med

1.
It seems likely that boats already in the EU Med will retain their EU Goods status thus not attracting VAT/re import.
However boats in the EU returning to the UK after 31st December 2020 might need to be re-imported and pay VAT even if they had paid it previously.
Boats entering EU waters from the UK will be subject to import/VAT unless they opt for TA (18 month temporary import) rules.

2.
Until 31st December 2020, a UK Citizen can visit their boat EU boat as much as they like (Freedom of Movement legislation). This is always subject to the 183 day tax rules enforced by most countries.
It seems that until late 2022, UK Citizens will be allowed to do go to their EU Med boats for a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days rolling period. It isn't clear but I don't think a Schengen visa will be required.
During late 2022, the ETIAS system will be implemented. This will be an automated system like the ESTA system that the Americans use. ETIAS is a visa to enter Europe that lasts 3 years. It still only entitles you to 90 days in any 180 days. ETIAS will be linked to the airlines and ferry operators so that you won't be able to travel unless you have an ETIAS visa and (I suspect) a calculation of remaining eligible days will be made before you can travel.

3.
Goods transported to the boat could be subject to duty/VAT. It may be necessary to use a Carnet style system for the same goods going back and forth (tools etc).

I think that summarises it from my point of view.
Any comments?
Click to expand...

I think you are spot on with your summary. That's why I just made a fast trip to my boat in France with my poor E38 stuffed full. I now have just about everything I need for the next three years. Hopefully at least we will know the rules by then.

I may try a French long stay tourist visa to cover the summer, say 4 months, then using the normal Schengen rules for 2 months earlier in the year. All keeping to the 182 max. I thought about residency but I don't think its right for me.

We can only hope they will do 182/365 deals on an individual country basis during the first year or two.

And yes I am in self quarantine for 14 days, half way through, thank goodness for Waitrose ??
 
Baggywrinkle said:
I used to do exactly this in Croatia before they joined the EU. Circumstances were a little different - Croatia was outside the EU but operating effectively the same rules, I am an EU citizen - the procedure however was the same.

I bought the boat in Split - VAT unpaid and had to export it the day I took delivery. This involved a morning at the Split customs dock filling out paperwork and paying various fees.
I then got my export paperwork stamped, the police checked our passports and we were stamped as exiting Croatia and let go with instructions to leave Croatian waters by the most direct route.

When out at sea I removed all traces of the previous registration, flag, name, vignette, charter company stickers etc. and replaced them with the UK SSR, a Red Ensign, and a new name - all set up in advance.

We sailed overnight, then just off Mali Losinj, we hoisted the yellow flag, the croatian courtesy flag, and headed into the customs dock in Mali Losinj (Port of Entry).
Click to expand...
Love it. Thanks this has been really interesting, indeed the whole thread has been excellent. I am based in Italy (Southern) and I rather get the impression (being diplomatic) that paying taxes is not top of their agenda - not that I suspect it is anywhere but down there it goes to a new level.
 
Hooligan said:
Love it. Thanks this has been really interesting, indeed the whole thread has been excellent. I am based in Italy (Southern) and I rather get the impression (being diplomatic) that paying taxes is not top of their agenda - not that I suspect it is anywhere but down there it goes to a new level.
Click to expand...
:-)
you should visit Greece then, tax evation is a national sport, we'd probably get a gold medal once they introduce it in Olympics :LOL:
 
vas said:
:)
you should visit Greece then, tax evation is a national sport, we'd probably get a gold medal once they introduce it in Olympics :LOL:
Click to expand...
In 2001 we actually went to Greece to look at boats and a lovely guy from Ancaster showed us some lovely craft all about 20% cheaper than we could buy in the UK. You’ve probably guessed by now, none were VAT paid.
What a lovely place to have a boat though.
One boat came with a Philippino Included.

Just spotted “lovely” 3 times in the same posting.......I’m an engineer!
 
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