Latest Brexit Scare

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Following my last on this matter, one of our marina forum team had a meeting with our marina manager. He seemed confident that Spain would find a way round these problems as they all agree that Spain is desperate to keep the tourist/expat trade. I tend to agree that the Spanish will find solutions to all the issues quoted in my summary. We will have to wait and see how it all "pans out".

I thought that before the Spanish tax authorities shafted me and many other UK boat owners with their matriculation tax back in 2008. In the end, like all govts, if the Spanish see a short term opportunity to shaft foreigners with a tax purge they'll take it, especially with their coffers depleted due to Covid. We saw this all around the Med in the aftermath of the Eurozone crisis. Govts see boat owners, particularly foreign boaters, as cash cows to milk when they can, irrespective of the effect on their tourist trade

 

[John100156]

I managed to dial in about 10 mins late and entered straight in.

Likewise I was generally unimpressed, I believe there was even a mistake on one of the slides regarding the 90/180 rolling rule, which in itself was painfully explained. For me as I see it it is simple, on day one of you visit you look back '180' days and count how many of the 90 you have already used and that tells you what you have left..... on day 2 you do the same, etc...

I did get a few good points though so not entirely useless....

 

[Hurricane]

I thought that before the Spanish tax authorities shafted me and many other UK boat owners with their matriculation tax back in 2008. In the end, like all govts, if the Spanish see a short term opportunity to shaft foreigners with a tax purge they'll take it, especially with their coffers depleted due to Covid. We saw this all around the Med in the aftermath of the Eurozone crisis. Govts see boat owners, particularly foreign boaters, as cash cows to milk when they can, irrespective of the effect on their tourist trade

Not sure I agree with you.
Yes, I do remember your "shafting"
But, in their defence, they were trying to get some income from foreign companies owning and operating charter boats in their waters.
Any income generated wasn't taxed by the Spanish authorities.
In the case of leisure boaters, there isn't any income for them to collect taxes against.

 

[jrudge]

Spain may do something - however until the breast talks at EU level conclude they won't make any move.

I would suspect any move they do make will come at a price. I do agree it is logical to keep people coming, but they will have stats from passports etc as to how big or small the community is that will breach the 90 in 180. All residents will now have applied for their Brexit rights etc so the community could be very small. The only people who it really impacts are retired people who are inclined to spend more than 90 days there - and that is probably over the summer. I can easily see them saying the number impacted are so small they won't bother given they have bigger things to worry them at present

 

[Hurricane]

I managed to dial in about 10 mins late and entered straight in.

Likewise I was generally unimpressed, I believe there was even a mistake on one of the slides regarding the 90/180 rolling rule, which in itself was painfully explained. For me as I see it it is simple, on day one of you visit you look back '180' days and count how many of the 90 you have already used and that tells you what you have left..... on day 2 you do the same, etc...

I did get a few good points though so not entirely useless....

You didn't miss anything it took them nearly 10 minutes to get the technology half working and then another 5 minutes repeating themselves after the second presenter finally got connected.

What were the good points for you, John?

 

[John100156]

Much as you/others have already debated above, for me:

As a UK Citizen with UK flagged boat, boat staying in EU, retains its VAT Paid status (if paid), so easy to keep/sell in EU. Not so good if I want to bring back to UK, although I believe they have already agreed a one year extension regarding RGR and are trying for more.

ICC should still be recognised as a Qualification, for UK residents operating UK flagged boats.

T2L EU country has the right to confirm that a boat which is entering or within the EU has the status of Union goods which I have I thought was a document that confirmed VAT paid but that is not the case from what I gleaned.

Hope I have the above correct, notes note with me at mo.....

 

[jrudge]

I got T2L on the boat and tender following a post by Hurricane on here a long time ago. Any use? Not a clue but it cost no more than a stamp.

 

[Hurricane]

T2L EU country has the right to confirm that a boat which is entering or within the EU has the status of Union goods which I have I thought was a document that confirmed VAT paid but that is not the case from what I gleaned.

I believe that the T2L is part of the paperwork that you get when you import a good into the EU so it only forms evidence of EU goods status. We all got our T2Ls to prove that the boat an EU good.
Of course, it doesn't prove that the boat was an EU good at 31st December 2020 but I think it will help.

 

[John100156]

Yes I have my T2L and I know we have other plans afoot for recording boats as at 31 Dec, it was mentioned in despatches with Nicolas via email this week, he said to call in for a coffee when I am out later this month, as if that's going to happen but I live in hope. I'm told today Cataluna went into semi lock down today all bars and restaurants closed, sigh....

 

[TonyR123]

I paid IVA in Mallorca anyway so that shouldnt be an issue re T2L. I will look to get my ICC in Spanish (thats printed in Spanish as well as English). Dont think anything else will impact me.

 

[Hurricane]

I paid IVA in Mallorca anyway so that shouldnt be an issue re T2L. I will look to get my ICC in Spanish (thats printed in Spanish as well as English). Dont think anything else will impact me.

I think you are wrong on two points here.

The T2L does NOT prove VAT/IVA status - it just confirms that the boat is an EU good.
HMRC have been stamping T2L certificates whilst they are still able to.

The ICC as we (British) know it, is a statement by the RYA that the holder is competent to skipper a UK flagged vessel.
Just printing it in Spanish won't make any difference.
AFAIK, the Spanish have their own qualifications that they require to skipper Spanish registered vessels.
If you have a British registered vessel, just get an RYA ICC
Thats the way I see it.

 

[RupertW]

I think you are mixing up your citizenship with the boat.
AFAIK, these are two separate things.
The boat has its status and you have yours.

I think you have also mixed up Citizenship and Residency.
In your case, I think case, you are an Irish Citizen, Resident in the UK.
I notice that Ireland didn't sign up to Schengen so my question in posts above stands for Ireland as well.
However, Ireland isn't in the list in the Schengen Eligibility Checker Schengen Visa Eligibility Checker - Do you qualify to apply for a Schengen visa from the UK?
So I really don't know if the 90/180 day Schengen rule applies to Ireland.

It never has so I suspect never will

 

[TonyR123]

I think you are wrong on two points here.

The T2L does NOT prove VAT/IVA status - it just confirms that the boat is an EU good.
HMRC have been stamping T2L certificates whilst they are still able to.

The ICC as we (British) know it, is a statement by the RYA that the holder is competent to skipper a UK flagged vessel.
Just printing it in Spanish won't make any difference.
AFAIK, the Spanish have their own qualifications that they require to skipper Spanish registered vessels.
If you have a British registered vessel, just get an RYA ICC
Thats the way I see it.

I more meant I dont need the T2L. I have IVA proof for Mallorca so wont have any tax issues. British registered boat but tax paid in Mallorca. The ICC I will still have an english copy but will also get a spanish copy just in case anyone is difficult (as per another thread).

 

[John100156]

Even if VAT paid wherever, the issue would be additional taxes should you import/return it to the UK - mind you:

WHO WANTS TO BRING A BOAT BACK TO THE UK, EU WANTS OUR BUSINESS AND WE WANT THEIR SUNSHINE It will be sorted....

 

[jrudge]

I have never been asked for a licence in Spain or France but keep it valid just to keep an official happy in need. Likewise the t2l. You never know and it has a nice stamp on it that is sure to impress a man in uniform !

Lets see. I am sure our leader is fighting hard for us !

 

[John100156]

I am a newcomer to the Med., only 12 years and I have never been asked to produce anything except the usual when visiting marinas.

I did once observe a large dark grey rib enter a marina in Las Fuentes that we were visiting, I thought at last, I can brush the cobwebs off my comprehensive folder of documents but, they just popped-in to the marina office, quick walk around some pontoons, then off they went.

 

[jrudge]

I did have a vat inspection in Bonafacio ( as did all boats on the quay ). In France i was boarded twice for passports and Boat registration but never a licence ! Marinas love insurance docs which is now just email them. I don’t know if they read the email !

 

[Hurricane]

I more meant I dont need the T2L. I have IVA proof for Mallorca so wont have any tax issues. British registered boat but tax paid in Mallorca.

Most of us have got evidence that VAT was paid on the boat and I appreciate that yours is Spanish IVA but IMO, you will still need proof that the boat was in EU waters on the 31st Dec 2020.
You talk about ICC so I assume that your boat is British registered (either Part 1 or SSR).
If the authorities are going to target boats in the future for EU Goods status, it will be the British registered ones that they target - IMO

 

[Hurricane]

I did have a vat inspection in Bonafacio ( as did all boats on the quay ). In France i was boarded twice for passports and Boat registration but never a licence ! Marinas love insurance docs which is now just email them. I don’t know if they read the email !

The only time that I've been boarded/checked was in the SoF (Villefranch).
Other than that, as you say, only marinas asking for Passport, Registration Docs and Insurance - nothing else.
I have never been asked for my ICC let alone my Yachtmaster.

That said, you might be interested in my yachtie friends experiences this year.
They were in Espalmador and a big black RIB came in asking for their docs - actually, I think it was only the usual docs but things have been different this year.
In fact, I believe that this friend has had a number of visits from authorities this year.

Actually, I'm really jealous of my friend's exploits this year - he and his wife decided to self isolate - at sea - only going to marinas when the weather was too bad to stay out.
They are back in SC now but were away for about 5 months - mostly at anchor.

 

[Hurricane]

Another NASTY little twist reported in this article.
EDIT better than the link



Towards the end of the article
Ms Corkin warned that leaving a vessel in EU waters after 31 December could also cause EU tax liabilities for British boat owners. This is because the “VAT-paid” status currently enjoyed by British yachts in the EU only applies to EU-flagged craft. And after the UK leaves the EU and customs union, EU authorities may seek to charge VAT and duty on the value of the yacht.

Really bad news if this is the case
Us Med boat owners would have to register our boats under an EU country.
That would affect a huge number of boats.