Know who you are Chartering with!!!

[johnalison]

I think we should be grateful to shan for airing such a useful, and obviously painful, subject.

 

[shan]

Sorry, that is simply not so. It is irrelevant that the booking was through an agent with an operator who used a boat owned by a third party. Irrelevant how much you paid, either in absolute terms or in comparison with other providers. That is quite normal in this business (I used to own a charter boat in Greece which was mostly used by the company that managed it for me but often if it was free it would be let out to another operator who had a booking).

What governs your booking is the contract and from what you say the other party fulfilled their side of the contract by having the boat available. You were not able to take it up because of circumstances beyond your control (and theirs). So why should they refund you? They have offered a discount as a goodwill measure.

"Don't forget your insurance when booking a charter holiday" might be a more appropriate thread title.

Hope you have luck with your claim on your insurance.

Thanks for repeating what I have already said, several times. So helpful.

I NEVER EVER asked for a refund... perhaps, you try reading what I wrote? I asked for some pragmatism, give Storm Daniel.

 

[shan]

I believe the OP is no longer canvassing advice from the forum. Rather she's sharing very sound advice based on her unfortunate experience. Basically she's saying people would be better off chartering with a company who own their own boats. That way, if something goes wrong, you get to deal with the organ grinder and not the monkeys.

Precisely.

 

[shan]

That may be true if the failure was on the part of the provider - but it was not. It is irrelevant who owns the boat from a contract point of view and the provider has already offered a significant goodwill gesture.

It's not irrelevant - when you are negotiating with 3 separate parties for a pragmatic outcome.

 

[shan]

The true measure of customer service, is not what a company does when things are going well but what they do when things go wrong. What we have experienced here, is everyone pointing a finger at someone else, as to why a pragmatic solution is impossible to find. We didn't want a refund. We are happy with an off peak reschedule of the charter. We even offered to pay extra money for a charter for next year. The simple fact is they all got their piece of the pie and had no interest in acknowledging the conditions beyond that they had fulfilled their contractual obligation. What they didn't didn't fulfill, was a basic level of pragmatism or customer service .

Deal with a company who owns their boats. At least you will be dealing with one party as opposed to a pyramid of sloping soldiers.

 

[B27]

Thank you.

The only insurance I have would be under my Credit card but as the charter boat was available, and the flights were not part of the whole package, it's irrelevant (charter and flights booked separately). Insurance would argue that the contract was fulfilled. Essentially, I was relying on the Charter company to behave reasonably. Never make an assumption.

Hopefully, people will learn from my experience.

As I understand it, you can get insurance which covers a trip itinerary.
A friend used to organise dive trips, she could put together a club package and insure against the whole thing not happening. flights hotel dive charter all covered. Obviously the premium reflects the potentially for paying out the whole cost, but people pay that when it's 'the trip of a lifetime'.
Also some people might have an annual 'all purpose' travel policy, a mate of mine used to travel a lot for business and cover for some private excursions was 'kind of included'.
In the old days, there were serious benefits buying flights via Amex. No idea if that still applies.

 

[shan]

As I understand it, you can get insurance which covers a trip itinerary.
A friend used to organise dive trips, she could put together a club package and insure against the whole thing not happening. flights hotel dive charter all covered. Obviously the premium reflects the potentially for paying out the whole cost, but people pay that when it's 'the trip of a lifetime'.
Also some people might have an annual 'all purpose' travel policy, a mate of mine used to travel a lot for business and cover for some private excursions was 'kind of included'.
In the old days, there were serious benefits buying flights via Amex. No idea if that still applies.

Thank you. Useful information for most people. I used to have all purpose travel insurance through Virgin... but as I spend more than 3 months out of most territories, it became impossible to renew.

 

[shan]

I think we should be grateful to shan for airing such a useful, and obviously painful, subject.

If only one person benefits from my lesson, it will be worth it.

 

[wonkywinch]

My experience chartering in Greece & Croatia over the last few years is the actual boat ownership and local charter operator is hidden behind Sedna (now Nausys) databases that many UK companies pull from.

Google image search will find duplicate agent listing for the same boat across UK/German agents.

Eg

https://www.pitter-yachting.com/en/yacht/greece/sun-odyssey-36i-maristella-marina-volos/893/all/1

Sun Odyssey 36i - Sun Odyssey 36i - Maristella - 2011.

 

[ridgy]

If only one person benefits from my lesson, it will be worth it.

Presumably you've had a nice life as a permanent employee where money magically appears out of the ether every month. In the real world with smaller companies your refund is somebody else wages. When you've taken days off sick when you weren't really sick or self inflected did you show goodwill and subsequently volunteer those days as holidays?

 

[Tranona]

Deal with a company who owns their boats. At least you will be dealing with one party as opposed to a pyramid of sloping soldiers.

This where I think you are maybe naive. The fact that the company might own the boats does not mean that they will necessarily become more accommodating in their goodwill offer, As I tried to explain very few of the charter operators actually own their own boats - some do and may be more flexible if they have more control over their schedules.

The reality is that meeting your expectations of an alternative charter in whatever form it takes means that the provider(s) "lose" money in the sense of the opportunity cost of losing 2 weeks charter income. This is exactly what having a non refundable payment contract is designed to avoid. This is not unique to the yacht charter industry but common whenever there is a time limited resource being used. If it is not used as in your case it is lost forever.

That is the reality - there are three parties involved on the provider side and none of them individually can provide what you term a "pragmatic" solution. Sorry to go back to it, but that is what insurance is for - to compensate you for loss where you are unable to take up your holiday through no fault of your own. If you can claim on your insurance then you regain control over making alternative arrangements.

 

[newtothis]

Thanks for explaining - exactly the point I was making. before criticising somebody in public it helps to have the full story - although you still do not say what was in the contract about cancellations once the full amount has been paid.

Once you have signed a contract it is unfair to criticise unless the other party has not fulfilled their part.

I wasn't criticising them for rabidly sticking to the terms of their contract in the face of a customer telling them they couldn't attend because their father had died 12,000 miles away.
I was criticising them for for thinking that it was good business practice to stiff a customer that would otherwise spend money on their services for many years to come.
Good will is a much overlooked concept in business these days.
But regardless, my point was that my loss was insured, and I was encouraging the OP to look to insurance as an option.

 

[Irish Rover]

Presumably you've had a nice life as a permanent employee where money magically appears out of the ether every month. In the real world with smaller companies your refund is somebody else wages. When you've taken days off sick when you weren't really sick or self inflected did you show goodwill and subsequently volunteer those days as holidays?

I hope @shan doesn't read your post the way I did - nasty, rude and condescending.
I'm involved in the tourism business. I'm not an employee. We receive a substantial number of nonrefundable deposits up to a year or more before the service is to be provided. We receive full balances in advance, as well, although closer to the event. As a general rule we do not refund "nonrefundable" payments. However, where we're satisfied the customer has a genuine reason for not travelling, we issue a credit note for the amount involved, to be used against a future booking. When Covid struck in 2020 a substantial number of customers choose not to travel and we issued credit notes to them all - we were open for business and they were not prevented from travelling so we were under no legal obligation to do so. We take the view that if you treat your customers well they appreciate it, they stay loyal, they tell their relations and friends about it and give you good reviews on social media and customer review sites. If you're niggardly with customers they do the opposite.
Some of our business comes through 3rd party distributors where we have no contact with the customer until they appear at our door. We would be considerably less inclined to make concessions to these customers beyond our contractual agreement with the 3rd party distributor because there would be little, or more likely, no PR value in doing so. That's business "in the real world".

 

[Irish Rover]

This where I think you are maybe naive. The fact that the company might own the boats does not mean that they will necessarily become more accommodating in their goodwill offer, As I tried to explain very few of the charter operators actually own their own boats - some do and may be more flexible if they have more control over their schedules.

Isn't this exactly what @shan Is saying. Book with a company who own their own boats and you have a better chance of being afforded flexibility. So, in what way is she being naive?

 

[shan]

Isn't this exactly what @shan Is saying. Book with a company who own their own boats and you have a better chance of being afforded flexibility. So, in what way is she being naive?

Tranona likes repeating what has already been said.

 

[shan]

Presumably you've had a nice life as a permanent employee where money magically appears out of the ether every month. In the real world with smaller companies your refund is somebody else wages. When you've taken days off sick when you weren't really sick or self inflected did you show goodwill and subsequently volunteer those days as holidays?

They would have had repeat customer service from me - now, they won't. I have used Helm several times before, now, never again. I'm planning to charter in Thailand again, guess who I won't be using? Both Sail Aegean and Helm will not see another penny from me. Factor that into your equation.

 

[ylop]

Thank you.

The only insurance I have would be under my Credit card but as the charter boat was available, and the flights were not part of the whole package, it's irrelevant (charter and flights booked separately). Insurance would argue that the contract was fulfilled. Essentially, I was relying on the Charter company to behave reasonably. Never make an assumption.

Hopefully, people will learn from my experience.

I’m not convinced the charter company did behave unreasonably. If I’ve understood it correctly, then boat was available for charter but you were either unable to get there or chose not to go. I can’t see how you would have been any better off dealing direct with the charter Co? I think the lesson here is that insurance (probably <£100 for a single trip) is probably a very wise purchase.

 

[ylop]

. I'm planning to charter in Thailand again, guess who I won't be using? Both Sail Aegean and Helm will not see another penny from me. Factor that into your equation.

I’m guessing from the name that sail Aegean don’t operate in Thailand so are not missing a penny. The reality is that charter companies are busy so probably won’t be any worse off if you never use them again as someone else will book anyway. They probably hope it’s someone who doesn’t expect the company to sort out their bad luck and lack of foresite by having travel insurance - indeed id be surprised if Helm didn’t have an insurance tick box during the booking process (I’ve never used them but many others have an option that is not great value for money). Whilst being out the country for long periods may preclude annual cover, it wouldn’t normally preclude single trip cover.

 

[shan]

I’m guessing from the name that sail Aegean don’t operate in Thailand so are not missing a penny. The reality is that charter companies are busy so probably won’t be any worse off if you never use them again as someone else will book anyway. They probably hope it’s someone who doesn’t expect the company to sort out their bad luck and lack of foresite by having travel insurance - indeed id be surprised if Helm didn’t have an insurance tick box during the booking process (I’ve never used them but many others have an option that is not great value for money). Whilst being out the country for long periods may preclude annual cover, it wouldn’t normally preclude single trip cover.

No, there was no insurance tick box and yes, Helm operates in Thailand. Sail Aegean won't lose a penny from that charter but they won't gain a penny from any future charters I take in the Sporades.

 

[Mister E]

Shan raises a good point, if you deal with only one company then when something goes wrong you will not get passed from pillar to post.