Jobs for the boys

[Daydream believer]

Perhaps you commented rather than reading. Amongst other things Tranona said was: "the sandwich degree was the best model for that level". This was exactly what my "structured apprenticeship" consisted in. But I have to admit that the year out of college that the "thick" sandwich provided was not really a "proper job". Instead it was a succession of training projects which were very involving and could not possibly be described as cheap labour. Happy days back in the early 1960s...

That Irrelevant . I was originally commenting on a post by Athomson. Tranona poked his nose in. My reply to Tranona was to explain to him the reasoning behind my comments.

 

[38mess]

My middle son was mad about building when he was in school, he had a weekend job on a building site. I managed to get him a good apprenticeship with a good building company. He even did an extra year to gain extra qualifications.
He got a job straight away with a great company after he qualified and was doing well for a year, then he decided he didn't like it anymore and jacked it all in.
He now works in a call center which he's very happy with, gets more money and is dry and warm.
I can't help thinking what a waste as his building work is second to none.
I think apprenticeship should start when they are older, say around 25.

 

[Adios]

But ask . if your apprentice leaves for more money, why, if he was any good did you not pay him the going rate yourself?

Maybe. But then someone can always come along and offer a few pence more an hour than the going rate and tempt someone away. Makes perfect sense to check out someone who is already trained, see how they work and do that. Must be annoying when it happens. Even where there is some grant to help its still disruption and time to train people, rather than getting ready trained people and getting on with making money. So hats off to companies that bother.

 

[Tranona]

That Irrelevant . I was originally commenting on a post by Athomson. Tranona poked his nose in. My reply to Tranona was to explain to him the reasoning behind my comments.

Reread your post. Given that you specifically referred to Sutton Harbour in the second line suggests that you were linking an unconnected school experience to the apprenticeship scheme. I am clearly not the only one who thought this was what you were saying.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Apprenticeships are also gaining ground as an alternative to conventional university education.

My place has a fair number of degree apprenticeship students (often doing something quite like a Foundation Degree, which also has work based learning in it) and from all I hear we're getting some very keen and competent students that way.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Having spent 30 years of my working life in that environment I have seen all the big changes and to my mind, for business and engineering in its widest sense, the sandwich degree was the best model for that level. The year doing a proper job rather than a short term internship was the making of many young people ...

I taught for twenty years in a Very Famous University, and although it didn't offer sandwich courses (it barely acknowledged the concept of working for a living) those studenst, about half, who had taken a year off to do something useful generally did much better both socially and academically. I now recommend that to anyone thinking of unversity. Mind you, it has to be useful stuff for much of the year. A month or four travelling is fine, but a whole year of swanning around on the 'rents is not effective and voluntourism even less so.

 

[Adios]

I taught for twenty years in a Very Famous University, and although it didn't offer sandwich courses (it barely acknowledged the concept of working for a living) those studenst, about half, who had taken a year off to do something useful generally did much better both socially and academically. I now recommend that to anyone thinking of unversity. Mind you, it has to be useful stuff for much of the year. A month or four travelling is fine, but a whole year of swanning around on the 'rents is not effective and voluntourism even less so.

I had 8 gap years. 16 to 24. Crappy work, dole, extended third world budget travel. Then I was ready for a vocational degree course, wouldn't have been a day sooner. About half the people on my course were school leavers and half mature students. All the mature students finished and a high number of school leavers didn't. We knew the grass wasn't greener.

 

[Skylark]

I was bored silly at school, left to start an apprenticeship in a tyre factory (1982)....

Interesting, which one? My first 13 years were with Pirelli. There I did my 7 year EITB apprenticeship, including 4 year sandwich, honours degree. Happy days ?

 

[lustyd]

But ask . if your apprentice leaves for more money, why, if he was any good did you not pay him the going rate yourself?

Indeed, it seems obvious that paying a decent wage is the way to keep good people. I work at a large tech company and we pay the interns about £35k and raise that if they stay on with grads getting over £40k. Far from being considered useless they are seen as bringing fresh ideas and diversity of thought to prevent the business becoming stale. While you may argue the marine industry needs fairly set skills there is plenty of change going on with new technologies, materials and methods which experience may reject from fear of the unknown. A fresh pair of eyes is often better at seeing the value of change.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I had 8 gap years. 16 to 24. Crappy work, dole, extended third world budget travel. Then I was ready for a vocational degree course, wouldn't have been a day sooner. About half the people on my course were school leavers and half mature students. All the mature students finished and a high number of school leavers didn't. We knew the grass wasn't greener.

I do a lot of work with mature students now, and many would tell your story or something like it. An awful lot of people benefit from getting out of education at the end of school, doing something completely different and then coming in again.

 

[doug748]

Poor old Athomson, having a nice morning and then biff,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the Steak and Kidney pie syndrome.


Forum member A says:

"I never eat Steak and Kidney pie. "

Forum member B says:

"So what you are saying is, that nobody should be allowed to eat Steak and Kidney pie?? Is that it?? You are probably one of those vegetarian fascists who would destroy the farming industry and our way of life.
Don't forget that our fathers fought for these freedoms, this is how the Third Reich started!!"

A.............

"Well, not really, I just don't like it" ☺


.

 

[Stemar]

I do a lot of work with mature students now, and many would tell your story or something like it. An awful lot of people benefit from getting out of education at the end of school, doing something completely different and then coming in again.

I've long thought that, as an employer, given the choice between someone from Birkbeck or the OU, or someone who just stayed in the education sausage machine a bit longer to get their degree, I'd have the one who actually chose to go back into education, even if their degree wasn't as good as the sausage

 

[Tranona]

My place has a fair number of degree apprenticeship students (often doing something quite like a Foundation Degree, which also has work based learning in it) and from all I hear we're getting some very keen and competent students that way.

Having been at the forefront of developing Foundation degrees, and horror of horrors off campus delivery at partner colleges, I still feel the verbal bruises. Not plain sailing, but as you say opens up opportunities for students ignored by mainstream HE. Biggest challenge I found was converting employer enthusiasm into meaningful work learning.

You are right about a proper year out. My younger daughter got in her little 1.1 Escort with 2 mates and drove down to Montpellier for her partnership year. Classes all in French, then 2 periods of working in Paris followed. Different person after that. Her daughter has just started an International law degree with potentially a year in Canada. Just hope this Covid thing goes away so she can actually do it. Tough times for young people now, particularly 16-22 year olds.

 

[V1701]

Interesting, which one? My first 13 years were with Pirelli. There I did my 7 year EITB apprenticeship, including 4 year sandwich, honours degree. Happy days ?

It was the Michelin tyre factory in Stoke, long since closed but back then the absolute best you could hope for as a 16 year old school leaver was an apprenticeship there. Hardly anyone went on to Uni. My great uncle Ely had worked there his whole working life (as did many) and thought I was utterly bonkers for leaving to continue education. Went on to do a degree & some years later a masters and worked for the police, the probation service and in university libraries. Then had a gap 3 years or so doing voluntary work & teaching SCUBA in my early 40's and now work for the NHS in a health library after 4 years working as an HCA on the wards. Never settled anywhere really, variety is the spice of life...

 

[dom]

Having been at the forefront of developing Foundation degrees, and horror of horrors off campus delivery at partner colleges, I still feel the verbal bruises. Not plain sailing, but as you say opens up opportunities for students ignored by mainstream HE. Biggest challenge I found was converting employer enthusiasm into meaningful work learning.

Interesting, and yet from the perspective of the finance industry -- at least my corner of it -- there are two potential problems with such schemes:

First, there is the question of student diligence, they have to pass some quite challenging exams which not all are are as up for as might have been initially imagined. A second follow-on point is that this training isn't cheap and there is limited employer appetite to support and pay for it only to find the employee disappearing soon thereafter.

The solution is perhaps something like the accountancy/law firms employ but, especially these days, many interpret the hours and effort associated with such roles as unfair and even abusive. Even though the ultimate job opportunities are fantastic.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I've long thought that, as an employer, given the choice between someone from Birkbeck or the OU, or someone who just stayed in the education sausage machine a bit longer to get their degree, I'd have the one who actually chose to go back into education, even if their degree wasn't as good as the sausage

Absolutely. One of the best things we could do about further and higher education in the UK is take the notion of "life-long learning" seriously and make it much, much easier for people to go back into education in later life.

Having been at the forefront of developing Foundation degrees, and horror of horrors off campus delivery at partner colleges, I still feel the verbal bruises. Not plain sailing, but as you say opens up opportunities for students ignored by mainstream HE. Biggest challenge I found was converting employer enthusiasm into meaningful work learning.

Not my side of the business, but that's just what I hear. The bureaucratic barriers to graduate apprenticeships are horrible, by the way, and you're well out of it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

First, there is the question of student diligence, they have to pass some quite challenging exams which not all are are as up for as might have been initially imagined. A second follow-on point is that this training isn't cheap and there is limited employer appetite to support and pay for it only to find the employee disappearing soon thereafter.

Well - as someone wrote above - if these employees are so good, why aren't their current employers prepared to pay them more?

The solution is perhaps something like the accountancy/law firms employ but, especially these days, many interpret the hours and effort associated with such roles as unfair and even abusive. Even though the ultimate job opportunities are fantastic.

Fantastic, yes, but for a very limited number of people. I had contemporaries at school and university who went into that world. A few made it big (one is head of a Very Famous insurance company and one heads a Very Famous government agency) but most were thrown on teh scraphead, burnt out and dispirited along the way. Some people may like a career structure based on the second battle of the Somme, but it wouldn't appeal to me.

 

[Tranona]

Always a challenge in fields that have tough exams for professional recognition, but both the legal and accountancy bodies have developed apprenticeship schemes with different levels of outcomes,, some of which have always been there such as accounting technicians and legal executives but have tended in the past to be discrete routes. Now there are recognised progression paths. Pity in a way that I am now past it as would have enjoyed working with them to develop this sort of scheme. I remember the time it took us to persuade the Law Society of the value of a sandwich degree, so things have really moved on.

At 16 I was quite keen on becoming a lawyer, no doubt influenced by a fetching blonde I knew who worked in a solicitor's office. She got me an interview with a partner, but I soon discovered that they expected my father to fund my articles, although he did mention a scheme for the "poor" that paid £5 a week! My careers masters comment was, think about what happens at the end of 5 years and you don't get the ticket. That is the downside of making a career choice at 16 or 18 and why uni in perhaps a non vocational degree is a wise choice for some.

 

[dom]

Pity in a way that I am now past it as would have enjoyed working with them to develop this sort of scheme. I remember the time it took us to persuade the Law Society of the value of a sandwich degree, so things have really moved on.

.....My careers masters comment was, think about what happens at the end of 5 years and you don't get the ticket. That is the downside of making a career choice at 16 or 18 and why uni in perhaps a non vocational degree is a wise choice for some.

There's definitely work to be done in this space, maybe you should consider returning for a sequel?

Re the not passing risk, this is a trickier problem. Sadly, I've noticed that kids from less fortunate backgrounds who clearly possess the intelligence to proceed are sometimes inhibited from taking the jump. Which is sad and suboptimal.

 

[dom]

Fantastic, yes, but for a very limited number of people. I had contemporaries at school and university who went into that world. A few made it big (one is head of a Very Famous insurance company and one heads a Very Famous government agency) but most were thrown on teh scraphead, burnt out and dispirited along the way. Some people may like a career structure based on the second battle of the Somme, but it wouldn't appeal to me.

I would say the burnout risk is exaggerated, a throwback to the 1990s Wild Days when other 'lifestyle' factors were at play.

As for a Battle of the Somme Redux, perhaps, but is that not the way it should be? If people are paid well, sometimes the kind of money footballers couldn't even dream about, and people put great trust in these individuals, then if they don't perform, it's surely time to go?

But that's not what vast tracts of the finance industry is about and anybody considering a career/career shift should know this. There are vast areas of the industry where people can earn good livings doing rewarding and interesting jobs without ever going near the high stakes combat games.

Just as most of us here won't try to sail the Southern Ocean in mid-Southern-Hemisphere winter?