Jobs for the boys

[alexincornwall]

Given the current climate, it's difficult to knock any business that's offering to employ anybody, on any type of scheme, and I've always held Sutton Harbour in high regard. Great marina, great facilities, well located. But very expensive.

Under normal circumstances, I'd probably take a more cynical attitude to apprenticeship recruitment. Firstly, most apprentices are paid less than the national living wage - often a lot less. Secondly, Sutton Harbour will almost certainly receive a kickback from the government and that will largely negate the overall costs of employing. Thirdly, there is sadly an unfortunate stigma attached to such schemes and the people that complete them. Often a "dogs body" attitude.

I run an accountancy recruitment business and we regularly receive enquiries from candidates that were drafted in on such schemes and have gained some great skills and/or qualifications, but have been taken advantage of financially for a long time. In one case we assisted a young lady and brought her salary up to market average, almost three times what she's been paid as an apprentice for the past 3.5 years.

If I didn't love boats and if the job weren't working in a yacht marina, I might suggest slave labour etc. My title would have been trainee and my offering would have been the national living wage or more.

 

[Daydream believer]

I did my school work experience fortnight at Foxes Marina in Ipswich in the late 80s. They made zero effort to explain the various types of work that would be involved if I'd take a job after school (I thought that was the idea) Instead they just found some manual labour that was simple enough for the 2 of us and kept us out of the way doing that until we went back to school. Didn't get as much as a 5 minute trip in a boat or anything at all interesting. Pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the marine industry.

I am going to comment for a second time on this post.
I find it unfortunate that this happened. The govt introduced the scheme to give youngsters a chance to see something they had never seen before & an idea of what the working environment was like. You suggest a boring job, but there is nothing wrong what might have introduced a bit of discipline. That of going to work, doing a task etc.. I do not know if you felt that or even realised it. It may not have happened. Not all job placements were a success, but some were.
Imagine a youngster in a factory helping the fork lift driver packing pallets etc, listening to noise & bustle, having tea with the workers whilst they argue about the football and ask him simple questions about his home, school etc. going home & telling mum about the calamity that may have happened, or the fact that he was helping do some job with Joe the stacker.
They are not there to learn a trade, but to get the feeling of what the environment is like.
A kid with interest does not always need to be told, he can see for himself. A kid showing interest will soon find the workers wanting to show him.
The trouble is that some kids were probably not prepared on what to expect by the school & possibly just dumped by the system to tick boxes. Some kids were just not really the right material in the first place . A great pity

 

[JumbleDuck]

As for a Battle of the Somme Redux, perhaps, but is that not the way it should be? If people are paid well, sometimes the kind of money footballers couldn't even dream about, and people put great trust in these individuals, then if they don't perform, it's surely time to go?

Of course, but that's not really the point. It's the years leading up to it, when they are expected to put in insane hours for much lower salaries with the prospect of a partnership dangled in from of them which in fact will only ever be reached by a tiny proportion of starters. It would be like putting junior doctors through their years of long hours and training and then letting only 5% become consultants.

Fine if you know what you are letting yourself in for, but not necessarily an attractive proposition to those you really want to attract. The university sector has a similar problem: do a first degree, do a masters, do a doctorate, spend ten or twenty years on short term postdoc contracts, unable to put down roots, establish relationships or start a family ... and then realise that you are never oing to make it and need to transfer to a career in which everyone else has twenty years head start on you. The qualities it selects for are no those which make for good academics.

Or, as another example, the BBC expects entrants to survive for many years on per-programme contracts which may be just a month or two. It is almost possible to climb the ladder without a private income, which is why all BBC researchers, to a first approximation, are nice gels sharing a flat in Putney paid for by Daddy. The occasional token diversity initiative does very little to help.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Given the current climate, it's difficult to knock any business that's offering to employ anybody, on any type of scheme, and I've always held Sutton Harbour in high regard. Great marina, great facilities, well located. But very expensive.

Under normal circumstances, I'd probably take a more cynical attitude to apprenticeship recruitment. Firstly, most apprentices are paid less than the national living wage - often a lot less. Secondly, Sutton Harbour will almost certainly receive a kickback from the government and that will largely negate the overall costs of employing. Thirdly, there is sadly an unfortunate stigma attached to such schemes and the people that complete them. Often a "dogs body" attitude.

I run an accountancy recruitment business and we regularly receive enquiries from candidates that were drafted in on such schemes and have gained some great skills and/or qualifications, but have been taken advantage of financially for a long time. In one case we assisted a young lady and brought her salary up to market average, almost three times what she's been paid as an apprentice for the past 3.5 years.

If I didn't love boats and if the job weren't working in a yacht marina, I might suggest slave labour etc. My title would have been trainee and my offering would have been the national living wage or more.

As a berth holder in Sutton, whilst I agree it is expensive, it’s actually not much, or no more expensive than the other main Plymouth marinas. And with the big advantage of being behind lock gates.
I look forward to meeting the apprentices in due course. All the other outdoor staff are excellent, so the newcomers should be in good hands.

 

[Daydream believer]

There has been mention from many about the difficulties & failures of their start in industry. I have spoken to many who have said how glad that they are that they have reached retirement & exited from their industry.
Many just say how they have ended up hating their job.
How sad
I started working hours on end clearing endless heaps of wood shaving from my fathers joinery works at the age of 8. It was awful... I am 74 in 2 days time & 3 weeks ago I was asked to take on some work for an old client. My wife refused to let me do it because of the covid risk.
Am I unhappy about that. Yes, I think that I am!!!
I loved my work. Even the stress, The sleepless nights, The thrills the fun of winning a big contract whilst not having a clue how I was going to do it. the buzz of getting it done. The joy of handing it over to the satisfied client.
And the result- Being able to go sailing whilst the wife plays golf when we want ( covid excepted)

 

[mjcoon]

... They are not there to learn a trade, but to get the feeling of what the environment is like.
A kid with interest does not always need to be told, he can see for himself. A kid showing interest will soon find the workers wanting to show him.

I don't remember any mention of "work experience" at school (late 1950s) but do remember some class day trips to local businesses. Well, one, to a local newspaper print shop. The old linotype machines and type layout gave skilled employment back then. The class youngest was deputed to press the start button on the press which was an impressive machine. I don't remember being in the least drawn towards working there, but I guess it gave us an impression of what went on that we would not have got otherwise...

 

[Tranona]

Fine if you know what you are letting yourself in for, but not necessarily an attractive proposition to those you really want to attract. The university sector has a similar problem: do a first degree, do a masters, do a doctorate, spend ten or twenty years on short term postdoc contracts, unable to put down roots, establish relationships or start a family ... and then realise that you are never oing to make it and need to transfer to a career in which everyone else has twenty years head start on you. The qualities it selects for are no those which make for good academics.

There is a lot of luck involved in this. You have described the downsides of starting in a career with a long ladder for progression in front of you to get to where you would like to be. Making that choice at 18 or even 25 is, despite the security a big gamble - just as my careers master said. He was an ex miner from Castleford like my dad but got his opportunity (like many) because of the war. Although we clearly need well educated specialists, many jobs do not require this, or the specialist skill can be acquired on the way, there is a lot to be said for a generalist educational experience in early adult years. Recognise what you say about academic careers. I was lucky coming in at a time of huge expansion and a shortage of staff with real world work experience to develop and teach on vocational programmes. Student numbers grew from 3000 to 13000 in the 20 odd years I was there and I grew with it. My world (or the one that suited me) stopped just before I retired when new VC changed direction and decided that people like me (and there were several) had no place in his new world. Call it luck but I did not have to endure being forced to work out my time in an alien environment.

Getting back to the apprenticeships of the type that Sutton Harbour are offering. There is little specialist about running a marina, but a lot to learn about working with others, dealing with customers etc and the "work ethic" that are valuable transferrable skills. For some years it has become obvious that jobs for life is no longer the norm, and I think this country more than any certainly in Europe has recognised this. All the indicators are that the future will require even more flexibility. When I was running our 4 way European Masters programme, one of the constants I heard from non UK students about working in the UK was " here I can choose my career, rather than it being defined by what I studied at uni or my parents tell me what to do". Not surprising that 10s of thousands of well educated Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks etc have made their home here.

 

[PhillM]

University is about more than the qualification - the "right of passage" element is a big draw for many. Don't think too many worry about the cost or the notional debt, as most will never need to pay it, and those that are successful in earning the higher salaries will just see it as an extra tax. Having spent 30 years of my working life in that environment I have seen all the big changes and to my mind, for business and engineering in its widest sense, the sandwich degree was the best model for that level. The year doing a proper job rather than a short term internship was the making of many young people - and a good deal for employers. in the course I was responsible for, more than half the students would get sponsorship from their year out employer for the final year and often a job offer on graduation. Equally a great fan of mature students going on to HE after a period of work once they get a feel for what they want to do. I did my first degree in my mid 30s after a busy early career that was founded as much on being in the right place rather than having the academic background.

Now I am encouraged by the growth in work based learning, but it is still seen by many as second class.

+1 - I had my first Uni experience at 50, 4 years later I hold a PhD and work in one full time. I agree with everything said here. I would also add that the new degree apprentices are a positive way forward.

 

[Adios]

I am going to comment for a second time on this post.
I find it unfortunate that this happened. The govt introduced the scheme to give youngsters a chance to see something they had never seen before & an idea of what the working environment was like. You suggest a boring job, but there is nothing wrong what might have introduced a bit of discipline. That of going to work, doing a task etc.. I do not know if you felt that or even realised it. It may not have happened. Not all job placements were a success, but some were.
Imagine a youngster in a factory helping the fork lift driver packing pallets etc, listening to noise & bustle, having tea with the workers whilst they argue about the football and ask him simple questions about his home, school etc. going home & telling mum about the calamity that may have happened, or the fact that he was helping do some job with Joe the stacker.
They are not there to learn a trade, but to get the feeling of what the environment is like.
A kid with interest does not always need to be told, he can see for himself. A kid showing interest will soon find the workers wanting to show him.
The trouble is that some kids were probably not prepared on what to expect by the school & possibly just dumped by the system to tick boxes.

Not sure why you'd want to defend the company and assume the kid wasn't the right material. It was just 2 weeks crappy labouring, nothing I could magic an enlightening vision out of other than "well this would be a shit way to spend my life" which is what I took as the lesson. I didn't get to see other people working much, there were some people behind plastic sheeting with air fed respirators working with fibreglass, no one was eyeing lines and shaving timbers with a plane, no scent of wood just chemical fumes. OK so boat building had lost all its romance already, can't blame them for that. But there were other people working than the repair part. Someone could have thought "We need to nip down the river to bring a boat back, grab one of those lads and he can come for a ride". 10 minutes on a boat would have given a glimmer that it wasn't all drudgery. Or "grab one of those lads to come and see how we move a boat with a hoist" But in 2 weeks there was nothing like that. No one had any interest in us being there or inspiring us.

Some kids were just not really the right material in the first place . A great pity

Thats just victim blaming.

 

[lustyd]

nothing I could magic an enlightening vision out of other than "well this would be a shit way to spend my life"

My brother spent a few years spraying high end boats, including some famous race yachts. I visited a few times and thought exactly that. It's hard labour most of the time, although with a pretty good cameraderie. He confirmed it was mostly long hours away from home in a hot tent with some sandpaper, but he did love it. He's since moved on to car work as it's an easier industry.

 

[JumbleDuck]

There has been mention from many about the difficulties & failures of their start in industry. I have spoken to many who have said how glad that they are that they have reached retirement & exited from their industry.
Many just say how they have ended up hating their job.
How sad

I like my work! I've been working flat out for six months on a new project, teaching in a way which - as far as I know - has never been done before. I'm working with an excellent team who are dealing brilliantly with the problems of COVID-19, and the results are looking pretty good.

On the other hand, roll on retirement. Summer '24 wahay.

 

[lustyd]

On the other hand, roll on retirement. Summer '24 wahay.

I have to agree it's good to love your job, but I despise people who say they'd be bored in retirement or not working. I think a desire to retire indicates that you're looking forward to having the time to do everything without the interruption of work! I have enough plans for three lifetimes, let alone retirement, it's the choosing that's hard

 

[mjcoon]

University is about more than the qualification - the "right of passage" element is a big draw for many.

Surely there isn't a "right of passage", even now. Might be a "rite of passage", I suppose...

 

[Adios]

I have to agree it's good to love your job, but I despise people who say they'd be bored in retirement or not working. I think a desire to retire indicates that you're looking forward to having the time to do everything without the interruption of work! I have enough plans for three lifetimes, let alone retirement, it's the choosing that's hard

Its really really common for people to die soon after retirement. I suspect its the people whose job was their only activity other than TV and the body just shuts down thinking it has served its purpose and isn't needed any more. I guess its the ones saying they'd be bored that are most at risk. People on here will be getting more exercise, fresh air and sunshine so shouldn't worry about it.

 

[Tranona]

Surely there isn't a "right of passage", even now. Might be a "rite of passage", I suppose...

You are right. Unforgiveable error! - although some do see it as a right as well.

 

[Tranona]

Its really really common for people to die soon after retirement. I suspect its the people whose job was their only activity other than TV and the body just shuts down thinking it has served its purpose and isn't needed any more. I guess its the ones saying they'd be bored that are most at risk. People on here will be getting more exercise, fresh air and sunshine so shouldn't worry about it.

Not sure that's true any more - the NHS won't let them!. Thought that about my dad who like many of his generation did hard manual labour all his life controlled by the time clock. Retired at 63, lived to 78 and filled most of those 15 years with simple things as he said like going for a long walk each day without having to ask anybody's permission.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have to agree it's good to love your job, but I despise people who say they'd be bored in retirement or not working. I think a desire to retire indicates that you're looking forward to having the time to do everything without the interruption of work!

Well exactly. I like my work, but I'm really far too busy to do it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not sure that's true any more - the NHS won't let them!. Thought that about my dad who like many of his generation did hard manual labour all his life controlled by the time clock. Retired at 63, lived to 78 and filled most of those 15 years with simple things as he said like going for a long walk each day without having to ask anybody's permission.

I'm told that divorce after retirement is quite common, as couples spend extended time together for the first time in decades and discover that they don't actually like each other. A bit like the notorious divorce blip after Christmas and New Year. One of the nice things about lockdown has been the discovery that my other half and I still get along well.

 

[Uricanejack]

Poor old Athomson, having a nice morning and then biff,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the Steak and Kidney pie syndrome.


Forum member A says:

"I never eat Steak and Kidney pie. "

Forum member B says:

"So what you are saying is, that nobody should be allowed to eat Steak and Kidney pie?? Is that it?? You are probably one of those vegetarian fascists who would destroy the farming industry and our way of life.
Don't forget that our fathers fought for these freedoms, this is how the Third Reich started!!"

A.............

"Well, not really, I just don't like it" ☺


.

Putting kidney in a Steak pie just ruins a perfectly good pie.

 

[mjcoon]

Putting kidney in a Steak pie just ruins a perfectly good pie.

That's because typically there's an inadequate nominal amount of kidney!