Refueler
Well-known member
Absolutely agree.
Broker is only a middleman and may have no idea where seacocks / items are to run that engine. The solution if really interested in the boat - is to ask Broker to contact Owner to have engine demo.
Is this normal??? Brokers and engines
- Thread starter Leadbelly
- Start date
Absolutely agree.
Broker is only a middleman and may have no idea where seacocks / items are to run that engine. The solution if really interested in the boat - is to ask Broker to contact Owner to have engine demo.
Refueler
Well-known member
Flat no ?
Surely a No is a NO and how given is down to the persons manner ? I know plenty people that No sounds like a declaration of war - but its just their manner.
As I and others have said - a request to Broker to ask Owner for that engine test either by owner demonstrating or Broker is reasonable ... if THEN the answer is No - that is unnacceptable,.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I bought my last boat out of the water, so could not run the engine. My offer was conditional upon hearing the engine before paying. When launched, the engine ran perfectly and the deal was completed.
When i bought my current boat the broker said he was not insured to run the engines and the owner would need to be present. I had a good look at the boat and made on offer, conditional upon hearing the engines running, a satisfactory survey (my insurance company insisted on one) and a sea trial. The owner came down and we started the engines, which were spot on, so i continued with the survey, then did the sea trial and paid for the boat.
If the OP is interested in the boat, contact the broker and tell him so, but you want to hear the engine running before proceeding any further. Insist that the engine MUST be cold when you get there, arrive half an hour before your arranged time and double check that the engine really is cold. If it starts and runs OK, proceed as normal.
When i bought my current boat the broker said he was not insured to run the engines and the owner would need to be present. I had a good look at the boat and made on offer, conditional upon hearing the engines running, a satisfactory survey (my insurance company insisted on one) and a sea trial. The owner came down and we started the engines, which were spot on, so i continued with the survey, then did the sea trial and paid for the boat.
If the OP is interested in the boat, contact the broker and tell him so, but you want to hear the engine running before proceeding any further. Insist that the engine MUST be cold when you get there, arrive half an hour before your arranged time and double check that the engine really is cold. If it starts and runs OK, proceed as normal.
IanCC
Active member
A sea trial is a must. Take warm engine to max revs. Make sure sails go up and down. Doesn't need to be very long.
RJJ
Well-known member
Definitely OK for the broker not to start the engine. The broker might not even know how....or more likely as has been said, they don't know if it's ready to start I.e. coolant checked, fuel pipes open, seacock open, impeller correctly fitted. If it has antifreeze in then it's a pain to start it, then you walk away and it needs replacing at a small cost of money and time.
Definitely not OK for them to expect a final commitment without seeing the engine running, unless (which isn't the case) they are saying the engine needs overhaul and that's reflected in the price.
Normal protocol is you make an offer which is subject to certain conditions. Condition 1 is usually a survey and you don't want one, fair enough. Condition 2 is you want (at least) the engine started from cold, run in gear, at high revs etc.
Definitely not OK for them to expect a final commitment without seeing the engine running, unless (which isn't the case) they are saying the engine needs overhaul and that's reflected in the price.
Normal protocol is you make an offer which is subject to certain conditions. Condition 1 is usually a survey and you don't want one, fair enough. Condition 2 is you want (at least) the engine started from cold, run in gear, at high revs etc.
Tranona
Well-known member
The flaw in the argument that the broker does not know how to start the engine is that he has already included a video of doing just that in the particulars.
As a number have said - offer subject to satisfactory running of the engine and sea trial. OP has already indicated the boat is low value (somewhere between £5-10k) and he is not having a survey.
As a number have said - offer subject to satisfactory running of the engine and sea trial. OP has already indicated the boat is low value (somewhere between £5-10k) and he is not having a survey.
Hermit
Well-known member
Which could have been recorded by the owner?
Tranona
Well-known member
Could have - but if it is the broker I think it might be the recording is done when the broker inspects the boat and usually includes a commentary. Of course the owner may have been present at the time.
The key point is that the boat is being offered with a working engine (evidenced by the video) to the buyer is entitled to make it a condition that the engine is tested before accepting the boat.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
I viewed a boat recently. The owner rather than the broker showed it. He offered to start the engines but cautioned they hadn't been started for 5 months. Both started on the button. Interestingly the temperature readings on both immediately went up to over 70C. Amazing after 5 months. Bye bye.
Blueboatman
Well-known member
Yup I’ve had one like that . So I said it’s an old engine , one day it will fail , it sounds ok today because you prestarted it .. offered an even lower price to factor in ‘ somethings probably amis there’ - but the engine replacement was or would have been a small % of the boats value…
It was a satisfactory transaction .
In the OPs case if he likes the boat ( and it sounds like a lockdown 3 year ownership resale ?) any engine problems will or would be a big part of the purchase price . Probably the single largest bill(?)
I would suggest he ventures back, with an engine specific knowledgable acquaintance and insists on a engine start up. And negotiates the price anyway , as he likes the boat already ..
Momac
Well-known member
I have only owned two boats and, by chance, both were out of the water at the time of first viewing.
Leadbelly
New member
Lots of useful input above, and a wide range of acceptable behaviours! Thanks for all the opinions.
We did have a look at the engine and went through some very basic checks whilst we were there
On reflection I was a little more perturbed by the vigorous response and some of the reasoning. The insurance is possibly a very reasonable point, but the you should take my word as a yacht broker was somewhat entertaining....
That said I wouldn't trust an estate agent or a used car salesperson either!
I'll have a think and quite possibly go back with an offer and a request for a brief trial under motor with the owner present.
We did have a look at the engine and went through some very basic checks whilst we were there
On reflection I was a little more perturbed by the vigorous response and some of the reasoning. The insurance is possibly a very reasonable point, but the you should take my word as a yacht broker was somewhat entertaining....
That said I wouldn't trust an estate agent or a used car salesperson either!
I'll have a think and quite possibly go back with an offer and a request for a brief trial under motor with the owner present.
Leadbelly
New member
The real debate now is whether I'm willing to pay 8k ish for a new engine in the next few years.
Stingo
Well-known member
What will a rebuild of the existing engine set you back?
Leadbelly
New member
I have no idea really, far too deep into hypotheticals, there's been lots of work done over the past few years including a top end refurb & reconditioned injectors, new engine mounts and more.
Tranona
Well-known member
Small diesels have a potential life of 8000 hours which at the typical 150 hours a year is well over 50 years. They die from lack of use rather than wearing out. So 30 years is just over half way through and no reason why it should not last another 20 years if it is used well and maintained properly. What engine is it? as some have known weak links that need consideration..
The reality is that for £8k you are buying a boat over halfway through its life and at something like 10% of its current replacement cost. The purchase price is just the entry fee. The running costs are little different from a younger boat of the same size and type and there is always the risk of a big bill (much the same as the entry fee!) if the engine goes bang.
If it starts from cold, does not smoke or overheat and you can attain full revs under load plus is clean and no sign of leaks then you can't ask for more. Hence the importance of making a sea trial with a cold start a condition of offer.
Good luck.
The reality is that for £8k you are buying a boat over halfway through its life and at something like 10% of its current replacement cost. The purchase price is just the entry fee. The running costs are little different from a younger boat of the same size and type and there is always the risk of a big bill (much the same as the entry fee!) if the engine goes bang.
If it starts from cold, does not smoke or overheat and you can attain full revs under load plus is clean and no sign of leaks then you can't ask for more. Hence the importance of making a sea trial with a cold start a condition of offer.
Good luck.
superheat6k
Well-known member
If you are interested in an offer ask for a copy of the Brokers standard terms, then strike out any you do not agree with, then add
1 Your offer is subject to sight of the engine starting from cold and prior to payment of any deposit.
2 A detailed Inventory must be provided prior to payment of any deposit.
3 The purchaser has a right to cancel the purchase without stated reason prior to completion of the sale, in which case the full deposit is refundable less any direct costs incurred for survey and inspection, i.e. haul out and re-splash fees, reasonable fuel for a sea trial, the fees of any professionals the purchaser may engage.
The Broker likely won't like it, but you remain the buyer and its your money they wish to take from you. There are many other boats to buy, and with the way the economy is going likely a lot more along shortly.
1 Your offer is subject to sight of the engine starting from cold and prior to payment of any deposit.
2 A detailed Inventory must be provided prior to payment of any deposit.
3 The purchaser has a right to cancel the purchase without stated reason prior to completion of the sale, in which case the full deposit is refundable less any direct costs incurred for survey and inspection, i.e. haul out and re-splash fees, reasonable fuel for a sea trial, the fees of any professionals the purchaser may engage.
The Broker likely won't like it, but you remain the buyer and its your money they wish to take from you. There are many other boats to buy, and with the way the economy is going likely a lot more along shortly.
Whiterose
Active member
All boats I’ve sold through brokerage the broker has taken potential serious purchasers out for motor and sail …bizarre ..would you buy a car from this chap?
Tranona
Well-known member
That is a bit OTT for an £8k boat. If the broker is using the YDSA or RYA model contract (as most do) the withdrawal clauses are already like that. The OP does not intend having a survey and the boat is already afloat so the engine test (and sea trial if necessary) will be easy to arrage. No point in winding up the broker when you can achive all that is a friendly and businesslike manner.
yoda
Well-known member
You could still make an offer subject to satisfactory survey and demonstration of engine running.
Yoda
