Is this colregs or RRS?

[Birdseye]

This afternoon we put out two fleets for a race. Joint start but two seperate courses round the channel markers, cardinals etc. One fleet IRC, the second NHC. Both fleets coming together at the upwind mark for the run down to the finish line.

So we are on the final spinnaker run in with maybe 5 miles to go to the next mark and no other boats or obstructions for hundreds of meters. We are being caught by one of the IRC boats who is maybe 30 meters to starboard - both of us on port so we were the windward boat but in the NHC fleet. The IRC boat deliberately turned towards us and got to within 1 meters at which point I thought better of it and bore away.

Leaving aside that the guy wasnt even racing us and if anything lost some meters by doing what he did, it seems to me that RRS doesnt apply because we were in different fleets. Just the same as if he came across a boat that wasnt racing but was cruising - as overtaking boat he should keep well clear until he has gone past. Rule 13.

After all, Colregs is statute law whilst RRS is not.

He took the view that once he had an overlap, he was free to steer his boat towards us.

So leaving aside the pointless stupidity of what he did ( and the collison risk) who is right?

 

[awol]

My understanding of the pre-amble to Part 2 of the RRS is that boats racing, whether in the same race or not, undertake to comply with the RRS.
I'm not sure that bearing away would have been my preferred solution!

 

[savageseadog]

Meeting boats in different classes or fleets is very common especially at regattas. RRS applies between all racing boats whatever classes or fleets they are in.

 

[lw395]

Colregs because NHC isn't really racing?

It really is shameful that people go racing in yachts with so little grip on the rules.

 

[Birdseye]

Meeting boats in different classes or fleets is very common especially at regattas. RRS applies between all racing boats whatever classes or fleets they are in.

I wonder what a lawyer would say. After all, Colregs is the law of the land. RRS is a simple set of rules invented by a private organisation.

But to take it further, there are many clubs in our area. In this particular case, he knew that I was racing, but its very easy indeed to imagine he comes across a boat from another club when he doesnt know whether he's racing or not. Just to make it clear, few of our races are laid courses. Most are round channel markers and many are relatively open water. Soi its easy to imagine coming across another boat from another club well seperated from the fleet but still racing.

 

[Birdseye]

Colregs because NHC isn't really racing?

It really is shameful that people go racing in yachts with so little grip on the rules.

Why? My interest is in how well we can sail our boat. I'm not interested in the barrack room lawyer bit and there are no circumstances under which I would protest another racer or attend a protest meeting. I did the agression bit when I was a kid.

 

[lw395]

Why? My interest is in how well we can sail our boat. I'm not interested in the barrack room lawyer bit and there are no circumstances under which I would protest another racer or attend a protest meeting. I did the agression bit when I was a kid.

When you sign up to race, you accept the racing rules. That means having a workable understanding of them and abiding by them.
If you cannot do that, you are a danger to other racing boats and shouldn't be out there.

Other people need to know what rules you are playing by.

The 'colregs are the law' approach was used by the Sydney skiffs historically, it didn't go well, they eventually adopted the racing rules.

 

[Kerenza]

Entry to a race means unequivocally by contract accepting rrs in place of colregs, but only when vessels who are racing are involved. Any other time colregs are in force. This has been tested in court many times.
Unfortunately identifying who is racing at any moment can be an issue in some circumstances, particularly as no racing class identification is used in this part of the world.


in this case if I understand the situarion correctly the IRC boat in question apparently sailed above her proper course for some inexplicable reason.

We were a little ahead of this incident, although didnt witness it, soaking as much as possible and certainly didnt want sail any higher!

*Racing as defined by rrs.

 

[flaming]

I wonder what a lawyer would say. After all, Colregs is the law of the land. RRS is a simple set of rules invented by a private organisation.

But to take it further, there are many clubs in our area. In this particular case, he knew that I was racing, but its very easy indeed to imagine he comes across a boat from another club when he doesnt know whether he's racing or not. Just to make it clear, few of our races are laid courses. Most are round channel markers and many are relatively open water. Soi its easy to imagine coming across another boat from another club well seperated from the fleet but still racing.

Lawyers have always said, with much case law, that RRS trumps colregs when both boats are entered into a race. The reason for this is simple, in a few key areas RRS and colregs are in disagreement, for example overtaking. It would be totally impractical for two skippers to apply one set of rules on the water but if anything went wrong to have another set of rules applied in the courtroom.

So, RRS applies. I'm afraid I can't make head nor tale of your description of the incident though, so can't help you as to whether you were fouled by the IRC boat.

 

[harstonwood]

Perhaps the IRC boat thought your were in the same class....

 

[awol]

Isn't recognising who is racing a simple matter of looking to see if the boat is wearing an ensign or not? In simpler days before mast trucks got cluttered with aerials, anemometers, radar reflectors, windexes, etc. a square "racing" flag was usual in place of the burgee.

 

[Birdseye]

Perhaps the IRC boat thought your were in the same class....

No. He knew. He was just playing silly buggers. I think he had given up on his own race by then.

 

[Birdseye]

So, RRS applies. I'm afraid I can't make head nor tale of your description of the incident though, so can't help you as to whether you were fouled by the IRC boat.

I'll try again then. He is in a faster boat. WE are both on a broad reach under spinnakers and on port. He is to my starboard side so if its relevant, I am the upwind boat. The mark is something like 4 miles away in open water and we can both lay it with ease. He starts to overtake some yards away but as soon as he gets an overlap, he veers towards us. Since we are in different fleets I initially thought that it was lack of attention or something similar but then he came very close at which point I veered off course to port. He laughed and bu66ered off.

All entirely pointless . We won our race, he didnt win his. If anything he lost out by trying to mess us up.

 

[flaming]

I'll try again then. He is in a faster boat. WE are both on a broad reach under spinnakers and on port. He is to my starboard side so if its relevant, I am the upwind boat. The mark is something like 4 miles away in open water and we can both lay it with ease. He starts to overtake some yards away but as soon as he gets an overlap, he veers towards us. Since we are in different fleets I initially thought that it was lack of attention or something similar but then he came very close at which point I veered off course to port. He laughed and bu66ered off.

All entirely pointless . We won our race, he didnt win his. If anything he lost out by trying to mess us up.

How far away from you was he at the point he got an overlap?

 

[bbg]

Lawyers have always said, with much case law, that RRS trumps colregs when both boats are entered into a race. The reason for this is simple, in a few key areas RRS and colregs are in disagreement, for example overtaking. It would be totally impractical for two skippers to apply one set of rules on the water but if anything went wrong to have another set of rules applied in the courtroom.

So, RRS applies. I'm afraid I can't make head nor tale of your description of the incident though, so can't help you as to whether you were fouled by the IRC boat.

I also can't figure out the description of the incident by the OP. If both boats were on port, with the other boat to starboard, that would make the OP the windward boat (as he says). I don't see how he could create separation by "bearing away". He would have to turn to port, or head up - not bear away.
But in response to the direct question, as many others have said - RRS apply between these two boats since they are both racing.

 

[bbg]

How far away from you was he at the point he got an overlap?

More specifically, to the OP: how many boat lengths (his boat lengths, not yours) to leeward was he when he established an overlap?

 

[lw395]

I'll try again then. He is in a faster boat. WE are both on a broad reach under spinnakers and on port. He is to my starboard side so if its relevant, I am the upwind boat. The mark is something like 4 miles away in open water and we can both lay it with ease. He starts to overtake some yards away but as soon as he gets an overlap, he veers towards us. Since we are in different fleets I initially thought that it was lack of attention or something similar but then he came very close at which point I veered off course to port. He laughed and bu66ered off.

All entirely pointless . We won our race, he didnt win his. If anything he lost out by trying to mess us up.

Sounds like he considerately overtook you to leeward, rather than taking your wind.
You then failed to keep clear as Windward Boat.
He shouldn't have sailed above his proper course, but that's any course that's good for him, not you.

 

[flaming]

He shouldn't have sailed above his proper course, but that's any course that's good for him, not you.

Not necessarily. Depends on how far away he was when he established his overlap, hence my question.

 

[bbg]

Not necessarily. Depends on how far away he was when he established his overlap, hence my question.

As I re-read the OP, he says the overtaking boat was "30 meters to starboard". If that was the distance to leeward at the time the overlap was established, it would have to be a very big boat (15 meters plus) in order for the OP to retain any rights when the leeward boat luffed him.

 

[flaming]

Ah, well spotted. In that case yes, the leeward boat was not restricted by RRS17.

(Didn't the OP start a thread about 17 recently come to think of it?)