savageseadog
Well-known member
Easily dealt with. The shout is "We're racing", the magic words that disposes of all interlopers
It's one of the reasons for flying racing pennants
Is this colregs or RRS?
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Easily dealt with. The shout is "We're racing", the magic words that disposes of all interlopers
It's one of the reasons for flying racing pennants
awol
Well-known member
A quick gybe onto starboard would have sorted him!
Birdseye
Well-known member
Ah, I see the misunderstanding. My error. I used the words "bear away" in a casual non yottie way. Yes we did turn more towards the wind or "head up" if you want. And yes he would have been fewer than 2 or 3 boat lengths ( whichever applies) to leeward when he got an overlap. Cant be precise - I was concentrating on the rolling.
No question of "proper course" . He could have gone 10 ndegrees in either direction and claimed proper course. Or even tacked down wind. Too far away from the mark to be precise.
So what you are all saying is that RRS does apply even if racing in different races at the same time, and he was within his rights to mess us about even if it was totally pointless because we werent in the same race. Sensible thing , yacht racing!
No question of "proper course" . He could have gone 10 ndegrees in either direction and claimed proper course. Or even tacked down wind. Too far away from the mark to be precise.
So what you are all saying is that RRS does apply even if racing in different races at the same time, and he was within his rights to mess us about even if it was totally pointless because we werent in the same race. Sensible thing , yacht racing!
awol
Well-known member
Not quite, if he was more than 2 boatlengths to leeward when he got the overlap, he was within his rights.
Given your encyclopedic knowledge of the rules can you be sure you didn't piss him off (inadvertently perhaps) on a previous meeting?
bbg
Active member
If he was more than two boat lengths to leeward when he established the overlap (you mentioned 30 meters), he was within his rights to luff you. And it wasn't necessarily about messing you about. If he sailed into your wind shadow, he might not have had the power to break through. Luffing you then bearing away could make him faster to the mark than sitting in your wind shadow for three or five minutes.
Triassic
Well-known member
I got accused of "messing" up someone's race a couple of years ago. We were both racing, but in different races for different clubs although on the same river. Not dissimilar circumstances to those described by the OP and I was the lower boat accused of luffing unnecessarily. The chap actually rowed over to us after the race to make his feelings known so I invited him onboard for some discussion. He left a short time later a whole lot happier as he now understood how lighter faster boats often have to change course constantly as they react to slight variations in the true, and therefore apparent wind and it had nothing to do with any desire on my part to upset him......
Birdseye
Well-known member
OK, I prefer to believe the best of people so I will try to convince myself that it wasnt just a silly game.
I'm up to speed on the rules when it comes to things like mark rounding or the start line AWOL - these are the areas where a misunderstanding can mean coming together and damage. Just not interested or willing to take part in the match racing type luffing etc in open water. I sail for fun, and if someone wants to gain places by hindering me, then he can have those places. I've done 360s before now when I was sure I was in the right just to avoid any argument.
This is part of the reason why I sail NHC not IRC. The latter is simply too serious and macho for me.
We dont even shout on the boat! Or at other boats. Though I did on Sunday when he came too close.
I'm up to speed on the rules when it comes to things like mark rounding or the start line AWOL - these are the areas where a misunderstanding can mean coming together and damage. Just not interested or willing to take part in the match racing type luffing etc in open water. I sail for fun, and if someone wants to gain places by hindering me, then he can have those places. I've done 360s before now when I was sure I was in the right just to avoid any argument.
This is part of the reason why I sail NHC not IRC. The latter is simply too serious and macho for me.
We dont even shout on the boat! Or at other boats. Though I did on Sunday when he came too close.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
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Birdseye
Well-known member
Go on Daydream. Were you going to be rude? Or post in support? 
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Go on Daydream. Were you going to be rude? Or post in support?
What?? ME RUDE?? never!!!---sod off !!:nonchalance:
(Is that better?)
Actually I originally posted along the lines that a boat could not luff above its course until it had passed clear ahead. The OP, being in front could luff the boat catching up.
However, I am not sure that I fully understand the situation (or the rules) without a sketch & the 2 boat length issue also comes into play.
So to avoid being controversial-- something I would never wish to appear-- I deleted the post:encouragement:
awol
Well-known member
Somehow this thread reminds me of the arguments propounded by those whose understanding of the IRPCS is to act like startled rabbits when they see another vessel. The RRS give rights and obligations and having entered the race these apply to all the contestants and any others racing in the same waters (rule 3). It is incumbent on you whether sailing "for fun" or more seriously to know and understand these rules (you have shown in the OP you don't understand the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS or rule 17 - do you really understand all the mark rounding ramifications of rule 18?) . I suppose that if sailing under NHC you don't need to be on the start line at the gun, a consistent 30 seconds late will keep you out of trouble and your handicap will adjust to allow for it. Similarly staying out of the way at marks if done regularly won't hurt the handicap. Contesting the start or holding your rights at marks can necessitate close quarters and if you are not sailing by all the same rules as the others then unhappiness can be the result.
This doesn't read as gently as I would like, and for that, I apologise, but I have raced with people who don't understand the rules and I don't enjoy the stress it engenders. May I suggest a re-read of the Racing Rules and also the Case Book. The rules are a shield but unfortunately some use them as a sword and then you really need that shield.
lw395
Well-known member
The two boat lengths malarkey is a bit of a red herring. It does not alter the windward boat's requirement to keep clear, it just means the leeward boat might also be in the wrong if you can prove they've sailed above their proper course.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Actually , on re reading the OP's post he suggests that the faster boat deliberately came up to windward from a lower course to get to the OP. To me that suggests that he was sailing above his proper course. The fact that he may earlier have sailed below it does not alter the proper course scenario.
Now as already stated, I am not a rude sort of person but I would have politely told him the error of his ways &told that I was not going to give way & if he did not like it he could protest. Nice & loudly so he would not be in any doubt. Better that way. Then, if I felt so inclined, & he came to windward luffed him to kingdom come before he gained any sort of overlap
awol
Well-known member
Rule 11 is the windward keeps clear of leeward yin.
So 30m away when overlap established (according to OP) thus, unless leeward was 15m+, rule 17 does not apply and windward has no rights and keeps clear, which she must do under rule 11 anyway.
How many times?
lw395
Well-known member
What the OP mostly suggests is that he doesn't know the rules, so I would be cautious in trying to ascertain whether the other boat was sailing above its proper course or whether it was entitled to do so.
The only clear fact is that he was windward boat and is absolutely required to keep clear.
Bear in mind that the leeward boat's proper course is any course it might reasonably sail if the affected windward boat wasn't there. Which can include moving to windward for a whole variety of reasons.
Triassic
Well-known member
And not forgetting that the proper course for one boat may not be the same as another. My proper course under spinnaker can quite easily vary by 30 or 40 degrees as I react to subtle changes in pressure. As a general rule we try really hard not to come up under another boat because it can really compromise our options, but sometimes it can't be helped.
We had a memorable moment at this years Burnham week when there was quite a decent breeze blowing. We came up behind two monohulls racing each other downwind under spinnaker in line astern less than two boat lengths apart. We sail considerably higher angles than them and it just worked out that as we gybed back across the river towards them we ended up perfectly lined up to pass between them, which we proceeded to do at speeds in the high teens...... It certainly provided for some enthusiastic conversation in the bar afterwards......
We had a memorable moment at this years Burnham week when there was quite a decent breeze blowing. We came up behind two monohulls racing each other downwind under spinnaker in line astern less than two boat lengths apart. We sail considerably higher angles than them and it just worked out that as we gybed back across the river towards them we ended up perfectly lined up to pass between them, which we proceeded to do at speeds in the high teens...... It certainly provided for some enthusiastic conversation in the bar afterwards......
Daydream believer
Well-known member
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Daydream believer
Well-known member
I do not think it is a case of " how many times"
Read the OP's post again. He says that when the other boat was 1 metre away he ( the OP) bore away. If an overlap existed I can hardly see how he could have done so, especially with a faster boat approaching. I doubt an overlap existed at all & with all due respects to the OP he probably panicked a bit. A lot of inexperienced racers would, with a darned great racer coming up the chuff at a rate of knots with crew all glaring at them.
I suggested that the 2 boat rule would come into play. Well it would if an overlap came into play at 1 m. It clearly did not at 30 m because the Op was able to bear away. If it did the approaching boat probably lost it in luffing round him. ( as an aside --Perhaps a small overlap can be broken with a quick luff to put the other boat astern so the 2 boat length rule would then come into play. That would give the committee something to judge in the protest room))
I said that i would luff the overtaking boat. I would be within my rights, I suspect, but as I was in another race I would argue like hell & invite the other party to protest. Would he have bothered ? I know from experience of heavy racing 50 years ago the probability factor. One just has to be ready to take it to the wire. It was part of the fun. But you should never give in because you just become easy meat for the next glaring racer to intimidate.
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awol
Well-known member
Possibly the following paragraph was not included in the 1968 rules - I remember "mast abeam" and heavy luffing to collision was.
lpdsn
New member
The basic rule is windward boat keeps clear. Rule 11 as AWOL says.
Yes, there are limits to how quickly a leeward boat can luff and still give you room to keep clear and there's the rule about proper course. But it is not always easy to say categorically what another boat's proper course is. They only have to have a logical reason for it and to show some consistency in following that logic to win the argument, so it is silly to not keep clear and invite the other party to protest as if they do and win you're out. It is especially silly if you have only a vague understanding of the rules.
If you doubt another boat's proper course, or whether they gave you enough time to keep clear, then keep clear and protest. If you lose the protest you'll not suffer any penalty because if you kept clear you were never in the wrong.
That said, I really don't understand the attitude of not learning the rules. Given the other efforts and costs involved in racing a couple of evenings at the start of each season swotting up is surely no hardship.
