Daydream believer
Well-known member
Last edited:
Is this colregs or RRS?
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
lw395
Well-known member
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I do have a copy of the 2017 rules
It is just that 2 club members have been trying to convince me that there has been a revision, but I can find nothing on line to the contrary. I wonder if this has just been added to their own class sailing instructions.
It is just that 2 club members have been trying to convince me that there has been a revision, but I can find nothing on line to the contrary. I wonder if this has just been added to their own class sailing instructions.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Re the OP's original post, club members are of the opinion that sailing instructions, plus notice of race, will have classes concerned listed.
In that case they are treated as all being all under the same racing rules.
That matches the 21 Burnham weeks that I did in my younger days where the notice listed all the classes & there were different start lines. All boats raced under the same rules, so Ted Heath had to give way to the dinghies coming out of the Roach!!!- But try telling him & the other class 1 boys that.
In that case they are treated as all being all under the same racing rules.
That matches the 21 Burnham weeks that I did in my younger days where the notice listed all the classes & there were different start lines. All boats raced under the same rules, so Ted Heath had to give way to the dinghies coming out of the Roach!!!- But try telling him & the other class 1 boys that.
lw395
Well-known member
http://www.sailing.org/documents/racingrules/
There is a link to changes.
Maybe your members are confusing with the 'zone' for mark rounding? This is indeed 3 hull lengths.
If it were changed by the SIs in one club, then I suppose there could be complications.
awol
Well-known member
I used to think rolling handicap systems like NHC were a good thing. They did not favour arms races and encouraged tail enders to keep trying. But it hadn't occurred to me that hanging back at starts and not competing at marks was a winning strategy as long as it was consistent. While some try to sail faultless races from on-the-gun starts through perfect hoists and drops, hitchless tacks, brilliant mark roundings (how I wish!), others don't even bother and actually win.
What was it Paul Elvstrom said ....?
What was it Paul Elvstrom said ....?
Birdseye
Well-known member
Bad comparison. A much better one is motor racing where you arent allowed to try and drive a competitor off the road.
From your description "proper course" is next to meaningless since there never will be any hard proof either way. That was my experience when I started racing and was involved in three protests and hearings. There always were two irreconsileable sets of facts leaving a nasty taste in the mouth when you knew that a fellow sailor was lying through his teath just to try and win.
a/ was a given. no room for doubt
b/ what is sufficient distance? Numbers please.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Thats a common mis perception of NHC but if you take the trouble to investigate the maths behind it you will realise that its simply not true. Leaving aside what RRS would say about "managing" your handicap this way ( its cheating) poor performances are far from fully taken into account and indfeed if they are way off what should have been the result, the adjustment system ignores them altogether. The frustration is that people peddle these misconceptions without bothering to investigate the equations involved.
My perception is that is easier if a lot more expensive, to go pot hunting in IRC.
Neither handicap system rewards just the virtues you quote in tidal waters with varying wind strengths and big handicap ranges.
lw395
Well-known member
The leeward boat needs to be free to make a reasonable alteration of course without having to wait for the windward boat to respond.
For example the leeward boat might steer say 15 degrees instantly, perhaps to make best use of a wave or gust or to avoid some weed.
The keep clear boat needs to be aware that the stern of the other boat might swing towards them
How far you need to stay away will depend on conditions and what type of boat.
flaming
Well-known member
Proper course is not meaningless at all. It's simply the course that the boat would have sailed without the presence of the other boat. So if you sail up behind someone on one course, then head up when you became overlapped.... You'll have a very tough time justifying that proper course in any protest. Equally if you sail up behind someone and then keep sailing the same course, or same wind angle, then you are clearly sailing your proper course. Until of course you sail past the point at which you would have gybed had the other boat not been there.
In this day and age a plotter, or an ipad, recording a track is all you'll ever need to win a 17 protest.
"Here's my track, as you can see it's a straight line before and after the overlap happened". Used that in the last rule 17 protest I was in. Hearing took a few minutes.
To be honest, If I was on a protest committee in yacht racing and the boat who's track was at issue couldn't show me a photo of their track on their plotter, or better yet a navionics track on an ipad, I'd be frankly inclined to believe that they didn't want me to see it...
And before anyone gets all technical on me... Yes it's true that you could alter course to windward after establishing the overlap and still be sailing your proper course, but that is frankly rare when racing displacement sailing boats and would also be easy to explain in the room, and more importantly, should be obvious on the water as well.
flaming
Well-known member
As someone who's been racing IRC for a long time, you should probably give up the opinion that simply buying sails is enough to catapult you to the front of an IRC fleet. It's just not true.
I can think of a number of boats who have spent untold amounts of money on sails but still don't threaten the front of the fleet, and equally I can think of boats who are sailing with some rather tired sails who are very tough to beat.
Sure new sails will help, but if you think IRC is 90% just spending money on sails you're very, very wrong.
lpdsn
New member
Whoosh. My whole point was that the rules of the game apply to that game and you need to have a reasonable understanding of the rules to play that game. You've totally misunderstood and are trying to compare the rules of motor racing with the RRS. That said, I do agree that you're not allowed to luff in motor racing.
It is pretty obvious when someone is not sailing their proper course. You do have to understand what the other boat is trying to do and what is reasonable for it to do in order to get to the next mark as quickly as possible, within the range of tactical choices open to them. Assuming it means they have to sail in a straight line is the mistake. Do you seriously just sheet in the kite and sail in a straight line yourself?
Kerenza
Member
with reference to my post #8
Both fleets were running towards a mark some 5 miles away. The mark is a port hand bouy marking a spit and the line is another mile on after hardening up 20deg.
We are half mile or more offshore with most tide on the rhumb line and less inshore, although nearer the mark there is still a small lift before the inshore back eddy.
One of the crew on the boat I was navigating on did actually see this incident, although we had passed both boats a few minutes earlier.
All boats on port tack, we were assymetric soaking as low as possible as I didnt want to be forced higher in a possibly backing and dropping wind at the mark.
Despite Birdseyes comment we were less than 50m away from where I wanted to be after those 5 miles. However I know we are fortunate to have designated navigator. More to do with the wind remaining constant than my skills though.
The boat in question, who were not having a good day, had previously rounded up in a gust and I commented as we overtook that I would be happier not sailing over the top, both for safety and course, but we couldnt sail deep enough to leward.
A few minutes later the incident took place, with Birdseye, by our assessment, sailing his proper course while the other boat shot off on a beam reach directly toward him.
I can make no judgement other than they were no longer running toward the mark, were heading out of the tide and thus making a gybe to make the mark very likely.
In Birdseyes place I would have taken avoiding action and assumed another cockup. (For the mods, cock up refers to the orientation of the cock feather on an arrow, quite apt for this situation.)
In the event this didnt alter Birdseyes placing, so little to be gained from taking it further, and the original post has been answered
k
Both fleets were running towards a mark some 5 miles away. The mark is a port hand bouy marking a spit and the line is another mile on after hardening up 20deg.
We are half mile or more offshore with most tide on the rhumb line and less inshore, although nearer the mark there is still a small lift before the inshore back eddy.
One of the crew on the boat I was navigating on did actually see this incident, although we had passed both boats a few minutes earlier.
All boats on port tack, we were assymetric soaking as low as possible as I didnt want to be forced higher in a possibly backing and dropping wind at the mark.
Despite Birdseyes comment we were less than 50m away from where I wanted to be after those 5 miles. However I know we are fortunate to have designated navigator. More to do with the wind remaining constant than my skills though.
The boat in question, who were not having a good day, had previously rounded up in a gust and I commented as we overtook that I would be happier not sailing over the top, both for safety and course, but we couldnt sail deep enough to leward.
A few minutes later the incident took place, with Birdseye, by our assessment, sailing his proper course while the other boat shot off on a beam reach directly toward him.
I can make no judgement other than they were no longer running toward the mark, were heading out of the tide and thus making a gybe to make the mark very likely.
In Birdseyes place I would have taken avoiding action and assumed another cockup. (For the mods, cock up refers to the orientation of the cock feather on an arrow, quite apt for this situation.)
In the event this didnt alter Birdseyes placing, so little to be gained from taking it further, and the original post has been answered
k
lw395
Well-known member
What's Birdseye's 'proper course' got to do with anything?
It's no wonder that cruiser racing struggles to get decent fleets reading this kind of thing.
flaming
Well-known member
And how do you think comments like that help?
lw395
Well-known member
Why do you expect me to help?
If yacht racing can't educate its participants, because they wilfully decide not to bother with the rules, it's probably beyond help.
The sport needs to clean up its act before someone gets hurt. Sooner or later some arrogant prat with a 5 ton boat who 'doesn't need to bother with learning any rules' is going to give someone a life-changing injury or worse.
As a dinghy sailor, I'm not favourably impressed by the behaviour of cruisers on the race course.
Maybe we should have a basic rules test before these people are allowed to enter races?
flaming
Well-known member
Because if you like racing in any form then making posts like yours are hardly likely to encourage participation. And we really badly need more participants.
There wasn't a collision. Both parties applied rule 14, even if the nuances of rule 17 seem to have been lost. What's the issue?
The main problem on this thread really seems to have been with Birdseye's lackadaisical style of reporting the incident, for example using "bearing away" when he meant luffing and not being sure how far away the other boat was when it established its overlap. That caused more confusion than anything else, but when you unpack it, I think he actually did everything that was required of him, with the possible exception of protesting the other boat for a breach of RRS 17.
He then comes here to ask which rules apply and to educate himself about the incident. That isn't the action of an arrogant "I don't need to know the rules" sailor, quite the reverse!
But all he gets from you is suggestions that he ought not to be on the race course...?
You've got this one very wrong....
lw395
Well-known member
No, I think he came on here to whine about the other yacht.
"So leaving aside the pointless stupidity of what he did ( and the collison risk)..."
flaming
Well-known member
I've seen every type of boat from dinghies to grand prix boats do some very stupid things. Or at least things that look stupid to the other party. Doubtless I've done some stupid things too...
Birdseye clearly thinks the actions were silly, that's his judgement call. But he also asks who was in the right, and which rules apply. Again, that's not the actions of an arrogant "I don't need to know the rules" sailor is it?
Oh, and for what it's worth, my suspicion is that the other boat made a (too) late call not to go under Birdseye but to roll over the top. Happens a lot with less experienced skippers being told contradictory things by their crew.
lw395
Well-known member
Who can say?
When 'bear away' doesn't mean 'bear away', best not to read too much into anything.
When a faster boat in another race overtakes me to leeward instead of taking my wind, I'm normally happy to give him plenty of space so he can get clear away and I can get on with my own race. If that means coming up a few yards, it's a small price to pay for clear air.