Is this colregs or RRS?

[Daydream believer]

The basic rule is windward boat keeps clear. Rule 11 as AWOL says.
.

But the point is -- If you ain't windward you don't have to keep clear.
If the Op had room to bear away it is highly unlikely to have been an overlap situation. So the Op was probably NOT windward boat.

Alternatively, if he had been, then the overlap must have been broken at some time, (to allow the bear away) in which case (as I correctly pointed out) the 2 boat length rule may have come into play in attempting to re establish any overlap.

If the other boat is not past a line at right angles to your stern you are NOT overlapped by the opposing boat.

But, without a sketch it is difficult to determine the actual situation as it arose & it becomes a pointless discussion. -- or a forum thread:encouragement:

 

[bbg]

But the point is -- If you ain't windward you don't have to keep clear.
If the Op had room to bear away it is highly unlikely to have been an overlap situation. So the Op was probably NOT windward boat.

Alternatively, if he had been, then the overlap must have been broken at some time, (to allow the bear away) in which case (as I correctly pointed out) the 2 boat length rule may have come into play in attempting to re establish any overlap.

If the other boat is not past a line at right angles to your stern you are NOT overlapped by the opposing boat.

But, without a sketch it is difficult to determine the actual situation as it arose & it becomes a pointless discussion. -- or a forum thread:encouragement:

If you read the entire thread you will see that he accepted, in a later post, that he had used the term "bear away" incorrectly. He was windward boat, and he luffed up to keep clear.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you read the entire thread you will see that he accepted, in a later post, that he had used the term "bear away" incorrectly. He was windward boat, and he luffed up to keep clear.

Missed that! sorry
Like I said , one really needs sketches to appreciate the real deal

 

[lw395]

Missed that! sorry
Like I said , one really needs sketches to appreciate the real deal

Even then, you usually get two completely different sketches from the two parties!

 

[lpdsn]

If the other boat is not past a line at right angles to your stern you are NOT overlapped by the opposing boat.

I'm impressed. I'd under-estimated your rules knowledge. That one often confuses people, especially regarding overlaps when reaching 'the zone' at a leeward mark.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm impressed. I'd under-estimated your rules knowledge. That one often confuses people, especially regarding overlaps when reaching 'the zone' at a leeward mark.

Try explaining to people that a boat several boat lengths from the zone may still have rights due to associated overlaps. That causes some confusion.

 

[awol]

Try explaining to people that a boat several boat lengths from the zone may still have rights due to associated overlaps. That causes some confusion.

Oh, go on then - confuse us.

 

[lpdsn]

Try explaining to people that a boat several boat lengths from the zone may still have rights due to associated overlaps. That causes some confusion.

I know. Been there. We rounded inside them and got ahead. Lots of shouting, but they withdrew their protest when they had a chance to think about it.

 

[lpdsn]

Oh, go on then - confuse us.

Imagine the scenario. Leeward mark. Boats A & B coming in from very different angles. Boat A reaches the zone whilst boat B is still several boat lengths out but sailing much faster. Because of the different approaches boat A gives boat B an overlap so boat B can round inside.

It is very easy to be lulled into thinking just about the scenario of two boats coming in neck a neck from the same direction, but there is no limit to how far away you can be when you have an overlap and the overlap comes from lines drawn out perpendicular to the centre line from the bow and stern of the first boat to reach the zone.

 

[awol]

That I have no difficulty with. I was looking forward to Daydream believer's explanation which apparently causes confusion.

 

[Daydream believer]

That I have no difficulty with. I was looking forward to Daydream believer's explanation which apparently causes confusion.

Perhaps you should have a go at racing. Just to enjoy the mayhem when a few boats arrive together at a mark from different angles arguing over overlaps.:encouragement:

 

[awol]

Having often sailed on multi-class triangle/sausage courses where fast boats are meeting 5ksb tubs at the leeward mark, some on triangle and some on sausage, I quite understand the simple point I think you are trying to make as do most, if not all, of my fellow competitors. It's why you think it is confusing that I don't understand.

 

[Birdseye]

Somehow this thread reminds me of the arguments propounded by those whose understanding of the IRPCS is to act like startled rabbits when they see another vessel. The RRS give rights and obligations and having entered the race these apply to all the contestants and any others racing in the same waters (rule 3). It is incumbent on you whether sailing "for fun" or more seriously to know and understand these rules (you have shown in the OP you don't understand the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS or rule 17 - do you really understand all the mark rounding ramifications of rule 18?) . I suppose that if sailing under NHC you don't need to be on the start line at the gun, a consistent 30 seconds late will keep you out of trouble and your handicap will adjust to allow for it. Similarly staying out of the way at marks if done regularly won't hurt the handicap. Contesting the start or holding your rights at marks can necessitate close quarters and if you are not sailing by all the same rules as the others then unhappiness can be the result.
This doesn't read as gently as I would like, and for that, I apologise, but I have raced with people who don't understand the rules and I don't enjoy the stress it engenders. May I suggest a re-read of the Racing Rules and also the Case Book. The rules are a shield but unfortunately some use them as a sword and then you really need that shield.

I shall take is a very gentle :encouragement:

When you say " I suppose that if sailing under NHC you don't need to be on the start line at the gun, a consistent 30 seconds late will keep you out of trouble and your handicap will adjust to allow for it. Similarly staying out of the way at marks if done regularly won't hurt the handicap." whilst no doubt recoiling in shock and horror, you are actually beginning to understand my point of view. I enjoy racing my boat to try and sail her as well as I can and I like winning as much as nyone else. But I am not prepared to accept inter personal conflict which is how I view what I would call "match racing". I want to be happy and friendly with everyopne, not trying to cause them problems or lose them the race. Racing simply isnt that important to me. Thats why I race NHC not IRC.

Interestingly enough, I deliberately did start the first race 30 secs after the rest because that struck me as the safest tactic with a new crew half of whom had not sailed for decades, and finished next to last as a consequence. And when doing race officer duties I have seen IRC boats do much the same thing though whether through deliberate decision or incompetence I cannot tell.

Colregs? Yes as an RYA instructor I do know the colregs, or at least did so until recently. But I havent bothered to learn the RRS except in the limited areas I described where safety might be involved ie at marks or the start line. Elsewhere I simply avoid other boats whether in the right or not. Life is too short for arguments .

I guess this attitude is hard to understand if you are a really competitive IRC racer.

Lastly, I can find nowhere in RRS that makes clear that the rules apply between boats in two seperate races. It seems to me that to luff someone in a race that you arent involved in yourself breaches rule 2 on sportsmanship. And then of course there is rule 17 and proper course. Lawyers lkike to argue and so never make things precise but the scientish in me ( whats left of it) woinders how many degrees off the proper copuse is allowed since at any one point in time and position, there can only ever be one proper course for a boat sailing downwind under symetric spinny.

 

[Birdseye]

Actually , on re reading the OP's post he suggests that the faster boat deliberately came up to windward from a lower course to get to the OP. To me that suggests that he was sailing above his proper course. The fact that he may earlier have sailed below it does not alter the proper course scenario.
Now as already stated, I am not a rude sort of person but I would have politely told him the error of his ways &told that I was not going to give way & if he did not like it he could protest. Nice & loudly so he would not be in any doubt. Better that way. Then, if I felt so inclined, & he came to windward luffed him to kingdom come before he gained any sort of overlap

There was no need to do that even if I did do. His actions were accompanied by loud protests and "what are you doing?" from his own crew!

He didnt intend to hit us and veered away when he was close enough for me to step on board. He was maybe bored and just playing games. Odd really because he struck me as being a nice chap .

But the point is -- If you ain't windward you don't have to keep clear.
If the Op had room to bear away it is highly unlikely to have been an overlap situation. So the Op was probably NOT windward boat.

Alternatively, if he had been, then the overlap must have been broken at some time, (to allow the bear away) in which case (as I correctly pointed out) the 2 boat length rule may have come into play in attempting to re establish any overlap.

Two boats sailing parallel courses in open water at maybe 160 degrees to the wind and aiming at a mark several miles away - of course you can get an overlap. In fact I had room, as he did, to do a 360 ( me to port, him to starboard) with miles of sea room to spare. Begs the question as to why he came within two boat lengths in the first place,

When I veered away / bore away / turned left / however you want to describe it, we were too close together for " a line abeam from the aftermost point of my boat’s hull and equipment in normal position." not to cross his hull short of me turning through a right angle. We were overlapped all right.

 

[lw395]

There was no need to do that even if I did do. His actions were accompanied by loud protests and "what are you doing?" from his own crew!

He didnt intend to hit us and veered away when he was close enough for me to step on board. He was maybe bored and just playing games. Odd really because he struck me as being a nice chap .



Two boats sailing parallel courses in open water at maybe 160 degrees to the wind and aiming at a mark several miles away - of course you can get an overlap. In fact I had room, as he did, to do a 360 ( me to port, him to starboard) with miles of sea room to spare. Begs the question as to why he came within two boat lengths in the first place,

When I veered away / bore away / turned left / however you want to describe it, we were too close together for " a line abeam from the aftermost point of my boat’s hull and equipment in normal position." not to cross his hull short of me turning through a right angle. We were overlapped all right.

The only question is why you think it's OK to ignore the rules.

 

[Birdseye]

How did I ignore the rules?

OK I'll grant you that I wasnt sure of what rule applied, but as it happened I did what RRS requires - as far as I can see.

 

[lpdsn]

I shall take is a very gentle :encouragement:

When you say " I suppose that if sailing under NHC you don't need to be on the start line at the gun, a consistent 30 seconds late will keep you out of trouble and your handicap will adjust to allow for it. Similarly staying out of the way at marks if done regularly won't hurt the handicap." whilst no doubt recoiling in shock and horror, you are actually beginning to understand my point of view. I enjoy racing my boat to try and sail her as well as I can and I like winning as much as nyone else. But I am not prepared to accept inter personal conflict which is how I view what I would call "match racing". I want to be happy and friendly with everyopne, not trying to cause them problems or lose them the race. Racing simply isnt that important to me. Thats why I race NHC not IRC.

Interestingly enough, I deliberately did start the first race 30 secs after the rest because that struck me as the safest tactic with a new crew half of whom had not sailed for decades, and finished next to last as a consequence. And when doing race officer duties I have seen IRC boats do much the same thing though whether through deliberate decision or incompetence I cannot tell.

Colregs? Yes as an RYA instructor I do know the colregs, or at least did so until recently. But I havent bothered to learn the RRS except in the limited areas I described where safety might be involved ie at marks or the start line. Elsewhere I simply avoid other boats whether in the right or not. Life is too short for arguments .

I guess this attitude is hard to understand if you are a really competitive IRC racer.

Lastly, I can find nowhere in RRS that makes clear that the rules apply between boats in two seperate races. It seems to me that to luff someone in a race that you arent involved in yourself breaches rule 2 on sportsmanship. And then of course there is rule 17 and proper course. Lawyers lkike to argue and so never make things precise but the scientish in me ( whats left of it) woinders how many degrees off the proper copuse is allowed since at any one point in time and position, there can only ever be one proper course for a boat sailing downwind under symetric spinny.

Thing is, it is a competitive sport and there are a set of rules. It allows luffing with a few specific restrictions. It's all part of the game.

Would you go out onto a football or rugby pitch and just wander aimlessly about grabbing at the ball if it came near you? Ther referee would soon put you right, but except at a very serious level there isn't an umpire in racing so the competitors have to police the rules between themselves.

Your complaint is akin to a boxer complaining that the other guy threw a punch at him.

It really isn't difficult to learn the rules to a reasonable level. Several good books out there, e.g Bryan Willis, Elvestrom etc. as well as a complete set of rules and the casebooks on the RYA/World Sailing websites.

And don't use proper course to refuse to come up until you get good at the rules. All he has to do to win is justify it. For a boat going down wind with a symmetric kite it is rarely a straight line because the wind varies in strength and direction. Far easier to keep clear and protest and argue about it from a no-lose situation.

You do get arguments about rules at a serious IRC level, but for the most part it is much safer because the competitors know the rules pretty well, so I don't buy your safety argument.

 

[lw395]

How did I ignore the rules?

OK I'll grant you that I wasnt sure of what rule applied, but as it happened I did what RRS requires - as far as I can see.

No you did not.
You are required to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.
Definition of keep clear:
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take
avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change
course in both directions without immediately making contact


That means keeping sufficient distance from the right of way boat, in good time. Letting them get very close to you is not good enough.
You claim 'he came too close' in post 27, that is completely errant thinking, you failed to keep sufficiently clear.
Even if you believe he is not sailing his proper course, that does not give you the right not to properly keep clear. Your only correct action is to keep clear and hail or protest.

 

[lw395]

....since at any one point in time and position, there can only ever be one proper course for a boat sailing downwind under symetric spinny.

That's utterly wrong.

 

[Daydream believer]

When I veered away / bore away / turned left / however you want to describe it, we were too close together for " a line abeam from the aftermost point of my boat’s hull and equipment in normal position." not to cross his hull short of me turning through a right angle. We were overlapped all right.

On port tack--- Bore away--- turned left ??

For the benefit of AWOL that is called "confusion"