Is this colregs or RRS?

[Kerenza]

None of this explains a rapid left turn onto a near beam reach to achieve a position far inferior to the one held.
If he was going to play games, it would have been with us, in the same race and ahead on series points.
I think he just lost it again.

 

[awol]

Well, this thread should discourage any cruisers who fancy a race or two from asking rules questions on here.
There are a variety of resources on the web for brushing up RRS understanding. Bedtime reading of the case book http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/20172020WorldSailingCaseBookv1.1-[22915].pdf, a mere 257 pages, is well worth the effort. There really is no excuse for not knowing the rules we are racing under.

 

[lw395]

None of this explains a rapid left turn onto a near beam reach to achieve a position far inferior to the one held.
If he was going to play games, it would have been with us, in the same race and ahead on series points.
I think he just lost it again.

What do you mean 'lost it'? Broached? Or something psychological?

 

[Kerenza]

Lost it again were the words as in a repeat of the previous round up.

 

[lw395]

Lost it again were the words as in a repeat of the previous round up.

So quite breezy then?
A bit more space needed.

 

[Kerenza]

Not really breezy, something around 12-15 Knts. We were certainly no where near planing.

 

[lw395]

Because if you like racing in any form then making posts like yours are hardly likely to encourage participation. And we really badly need more participants.


........

People who don't know the rules and/or can't handle their boats very well may be dissuading participation.
I've seen a few people I'd rather not race with.
And it's rarely beginners who cause these problems, usually people who been sailing for years.

If you want more people to come and play, you need to look at the image the sport presents and deal with the people who tarnish that image.
There are plenty of very race-able boats around whose owners choose to have nothing to do with club racing.
There are a lot of affluent dinghy and small boat racers who have seen the quality of sport in yachts and won't touch it with a stick.

Likewise, there are some dinghy fleets which seem to have similar problems.

 

[Daydream believer]

Why do you expect me to help?
If yacht racing can't educate its participants, because they wilfully decide not to bother with the rules, it's probably beyond help.
The sport needs to clean up its act before someone gets hurt. Sooner or later some arrogant prat with a 5 ton boat who 'doesn't need to bother with learning any rules' is going to give someone a life-changing injury or worse.
As a dinghy sailor, I'm not favourably impressed by the behaviour of cruisers on the race course.

Maybe we should have a basic rules test before these people are allowed to enter races?

with the greatest of respect
Having now seen your post #87 . I think you are now going over the top. When I raced continually for 20 odd years 4 years racing a hornet then 10 as a Stella owner in class racing & EAORA plus club racing the rest crewing in club & EAORA I never saw any really serious accidents. True there was the odd collision but no serious injury that i recall. There was a lot more boats racing then.
Rules were a case of getting the basics & picking the rest up on the hoof. Plenty of yelling & chatting in the club bar with the occasional protest in Burham weeks.
I do not see any problem in it going that way now.
There was always the arrogant so & so but they were soon cut down to size.
So my point is that it has worked OK for years & i think that you are wrong in your assessment.
As for dinghy sailors on about cruisers, I disagree. Our club has cruisers & dinghies & there has always been "them & us" it has nothing to do with the rules & how they are handled. It is just peoples incorrect perception.

 

[Daydream believer]

People who don't know the rules and/or can't handle their boats very well may be dissuading participation.
I've seen a few people I'd rather not race with.
And it's rarely beginners who cause these problems, usually people who been sailing for years.

If you want more people to come and play, you need to look at the image the sport presents and deal with the people who tarnish that image.
There are plenty of very race-able boats around whose owners choose to have nothing to do with club racing.
There are a lot of affluent dinghy and small boat racers who have seen the quality of sport in yachts and won't touch it with a stick.

Likewise, there are some dinghy fleets which seem to have similar problems.

I have commented in my last post. You say that you have seen people that you would rather not race with. What an odd reaction. You are not in the same boat. I agree that I would not like racing against deliberate cheats & i would soon tell them so if I caught them at it.

As for quality of racing - Not sure what you mean here? bad courses? poor competition, what?
How do they know if they have not touched it with a stick?

The reason people do not race is more likely the hassle of getting crew etc or the fact that they just cannot be bothered to get of their rear end. Nothing wrong with the image at all.
They just dream up any old excuse not to go.

 

[lw395]

I have commented in my last post. You say that you have seen people that you would rather not race with. What an odd reaction. You are not in the same boat. I agree that I would not like racing against deliberate cheats & i would soon tell them so if I caught them at it.

As for quality of racing - Not sure what you mean here? bad courses? poor competition, what?
How do they know if they have not touched it with a stick?

The reason people do not race is more likely the hassle of getting crew etc or the fact that they just cannot be bothered to get of their rear end. Nothing wrong with the image at all.
They just dream up any old excuse not to go.

There's not much difference between people who don't follow the rules because they choose to cheat and those who don't make an effort to learn the basics.
Quality of racing? mostly it's about the competition. You rarely get evenly matched tactical racing of the sort you can get in smaller boats. A lot of club yachts are poorly handled. The courses tend to be like a dinghy course in slow time, the same patch of tide every week.
The other boats you are racing against are poorly matched. AWBs that lean over a lot as soon as there's a breeze vs classics that are slow downwind in the light.
A lot of club yacht races seem like a short race, a couple of beats and runs, less tacks and gybes than you'd do in a 40 minute dinghy race, but it takes 6 of you 2 hours to race after an hours to get the boat ready and out to the start and then another hour to put it all away again and get back to the bar.
A lot of us dinghy sailors go along for the ride now and then, but we're not getting the impression that this is great racing we want to have a serious go at. I enjoy racing yachts now and then, but unless you can sail against the top end teams, the quality of it is not that impressive. It doesn't seem to be drawing in the good dinghy helms very much. Even people who own cruisers are keeping their dinghies or dayboats for racing and just using the cruiser for weekends away.
Our Solo dinghy fleet has the majority of its helms either current or ex yacht owners, several having done Fastnets, ARC, innumerable Cowes weeks and RTIRs.
Yet few of them do more than a bit of racing on yachts now.
I think the top level has become very expensive, whereas in the old days you could find enough people who could afford a Sigma 33 to get a big fleet, these days the running costs of the fleets where the best racing is are excluding people in similar professions.

If you think everything is fine from your point of view, then great, enjoy it.
But if you're struggling to get enough boats on the line to make it worthwhile, then you might want to wonder why that is.

 

[Daydream believer]

There's not much difference between people who don't follow the rules because they choose to cheat and those who don't make an effort to learn the basics.
People do make an effort they learn " on the hoof" they do not sit at home studying reams of paper & rules - how boring & off putting.They tend to be beginners & are at the back of the fleet. As they get better they interact with others & more detailed analysis of the rules become part of the learning curve. One can get by with the basics & keeping clear for a while & still have fun.

Quality of racing? mostly it's about the competition.
Competition is competing against another & trying to beat them& improving ones self. Our club soon found that beginners soon gave up in certain dinghy classes when they got thrashed by the better sailors all the time. It is the same in any sport. If it was all about only competing against the best all the club events would stop . Take - for example - the local cycling club. Do you honestly think they would work if they rode against Cavendish & Chris Froome every week. Of course not. They ride against others of similar ability & strive to improve a bit at a time. If the Froomes disappear it becomes disheartening

You rarely get evenly matched tactical racing of the sort you can get in smaller boats.
Cruisers can still race tactically. You just have to learn how.


A lot of club yachts are poorly handled. The courses tend to be like a dinghy course in slow time, the same patch of tide every week.
Then speak to the club management & get the courses altered - Simple. It is what we do in our club

classics that are slow downwind in the light.
Not allowed to have a go then??

A lot of club yacht races seem like a short race, a couple of beats and runs, less tacks and gybes than you'd do in a 40 minute dinghy race, but it takes 6 of you 2 hours to race after an hours to get the boat ready and out to the start and then another hour to put it all away again and get back to the bar.
Like I said - speak to the club management- most clubs want feedback from the members - but when they change to do what the members ask they then want members support- so go & sail not moan about something else whilst still sitting on the bank . Actually short evening races can be very popular rather than the longer ones. If it takes 2 hours to get ready then you need to learn how to do it. I single hand & can be off from the marina in less than15 mins if I really want to . I would also make the point that short course races keep a mixed fleet together & those at the back feel less left out. Those at the front have to try harder to get those seconds lost from a poor start. I would rather do a couple of shorter races round lots of buoys than one long one where one leg advantages one type of boat against another.

A lot of us dinghy sailors go along for the ride now and then, but we're not getting the impression that this is great racing we want to have a serious go at.
Well of course it is not for everyone but neither is flower arranging. But if you go with a negative attitude, like yours, in the first place !!!!!

I enjoy racing yachts now and then, but unless you can sail against the top end teams, the quality of it is not that impressive. It doesn't seem to be drawing in the good dinghy helms very much.
So what - Is it all about them or about a group of people having some serious fun When I raced Stellas in fleets of 20-30 or in EAORA I did not always come near the front but there was always a group of 5 I wanted to beat whether they be in the middle or back

Even people who own cruisers are keeping their dinghies or dayboats for racing and just using the cruiser for weekends away.
I do that. Supports the club dinghy crowd & is great fun & a release of pressure

Yet few of them do more than a bit of racing on yachts now.
I think the top level has become very expensive, whereas in the old days you could find enough people who could afford a Sigma 33 to get a big fleet, these days the running costs of the fleets where the best racing is are excluding people in similar professions.
If you already own a cruiser & are not racing IRC it is not so expensive, Hassle - yes - but alternative handicap systems are designed for that. Stop moaning about the loss of big fleets & get over it. If you want to change it sell the solo put your money where your mouth is & buy a "J" or something. As for "people who could afford" yachts are more affordable now than they have ever been.


But if you're struggling to get enough boats on the line to make it worthwhile, then you might want to wonder why that is
Actually the local BJRC fleet has been growing over the past few years & well done to the organisers & efforts of clubs like Marconi who now propose mini races for beginners to get the experience I understand.

In one post you said
There are plenty of very race-able boats around whose owners choose to have nothing to do with club racing.
Then you say AWBs that lean over a lot as soon as there's a breeze -- Which ones are those then?

You can see that I disagree with much of your post.

Please accept that I am not picking on you in particular; at least you did bother to put the post up in the first place

I felt that I had to respond because it was the typical negative sort of thing that gets said at just about every club round the country.
When i went round the UK I was invited into the bar of the Grimsby sailing club.
They were having a committee meeting & it was exactly the same as one of our meetings & really a reflection of what you have said.
Add the bits about people saying the wrong thing, not paying, not turning up etc & only the cast was different, the script was virtually identical.
Yet the club committee were really trying hard to solve the issues.
I do not know the answers . Perhaps people just do not WANT to race. But what does annoy me is people who whinge & who would never participate whatever one did to make things to suit them

 

[lw395]

Glad to hear that clubs like Marconi are doing good things.
I don't know whether less people actually want to race.
Less people seem happy with the racing that is on offer?
Even Flaming keeps saying the rating system needs changing.

Racing is quite diverse. Maybe what needs looking at is what experience some racing is actually providing?
I enjoy the tactical challenges of racing. Not just boats and rule, but also wind and tide tactics. But that is easily ruined if there are boats on the course not respecting the rules.
I enjoy getting the best speed out of a boat, but you get so much more feedback on this in OD racing. You at least need a rating system which you have faith in.
Take away those two aspects and you might just as well go for a 'cruise in company' or rally.

 

[Daydream believer]

Take away those two aspects and you might just as well go for a 'cruise in company' or rally.

And why not? Our club started doing this again 3 years ago & it is great fun going foreign in a group. It is not all about racing.

 

[lw395]

And why not? Our club started doing this again 3 years ago & it is great fun going foreign in a group. It is not all about racing.

Indeed. If you're not going to take the rules seriously, you won't get the best out of short-circuit racing.
Better to actually go somewhere and maybe see if you can keep up with the bigger yachts, get there using the engine less than the others, or just enjoy getting the best out of your boat.
It's funny some times with sailing, we seem to need an organised race and a trophy to make anything happen, while for many other activities (cycling, motorcycling, windsurfing, ....) people just get together and get on with it. Of course with dinghies, some members are really just treating the races as a time slot when the club will be active, safety boat on the water etc.

 

[Daydream believer]

Indeed. If you're not going to take the rules seriously, you won't get the best out of short-circuit racing.
.

You keep on about taking the rules seriously.
The point is that when beginning you just need the basics ie port starboard, room at the mark etc. & the finer points will come later. One does need to abide by the rules, but if one is not sure then keep out of the way. Most clubs are sailing in small fleets not large highly competitive open meetings, so at club level there can always a bit of give & take.
In case you have not realised, most people do it for fun.
If you take that out of it, then there is no point in them doing it--- Which, perhaps, is one of the reasons they do not.
Beginners, and many more experienced sailors, do not have to have an infinite understanding of the rules. Suggesting (which is what I think you are doing, albeit indirectly) that they should, just puts people off.

 

[lw395]

You keep on about taking the rules seriously.
The point is that when beginning you just need the basics ie port starboard, room at the mark etc. & the finer points will come later. One does need to abide by the rules, but if one is not sure then keep out of the way. Most clubs are sailing in small fleets not large highly competitive open meetings, so at club level there can always a bit of give & take.
In case you have not realised, most people do it for fun.
If you take that out of it, then there is no point in them doing it--- Which, perhaps, is one of the reasons they do not.
Beginners, and many more experienced sailors, do not have to have an infinite understanding of the rules. Suggesting (which is what I think you are doing, albeit indirectly) that they should, just puts people off.

Beginners generally realise that there are rules they don't understand and try to keep out of the way.
Other sailors generally recognise beginners and take avoiding action. Usually not a problem.
It can be a problem in RTIR which has to be the biggest concentration of people who don't know the rules?

But why do people expect to take part in a sport without learning the basics of the rules?
Would you play rugby against people who'd chosen not to learn the rules?

I don't think the OP is a beginner.
The people I see as a problem have mostly been racing for years, make no effort to know the rules (except they may suddenly remember one which suits them) and may well be in the top half of their fleet.
You shouldn't let the cheats hide behind the beginners.

 

[flaming]

Beginners generally realise that there are rules they don't understand and try to keep out of the way.
Other sailors generally recognise beginners and take avoiding action. Usually not a problem.
It can be a problem in RTIR which has to be the biggest concentration of people who don't know the rules?

But why do people expect to take part in a sport without learning the basics of the rules?
Would you play rugby against people who'd chosen not to learn the rules?

I don't think the OP is a beginner.
The people I see as a problem have mostly been racing for years, make no effort to know the rules (except they may suddenly remember one which suits them) and may well be in the top half of their fleet.
You shouldn't let the cheats hide behind the beginners.

But again, this criticism of the OP is very odd as he's quite clearly, over a number of threads, attempting to close the gaps in his rules knowledge.

RTI can be an issue, I've had some very strange stuff shouted at me from the cruisers in the class in front of us. Including a port tack boat who claimed he didn't have to give way because he'd "only just tacked" and a boat on port with a kite up that we closed with on starboard who initially claimed he was pointing at the mark so that meant he didn't have to give way, then when told that wasn't a rule, said "well we can't gybe out of your way because we don't know how". But that's the RTI, you expect that sort of thing and sail accordingly. It would be great if it wasn't so, but the alternative is discouraging people coming into the sport at a time when there simply aren't enough new entrants to be picky.
In my view, it's our job as regulars to take newcomers in, welcome them and help them to improve where necessary. In both speed and rules knowledge.

 

[lw395]

Not knowing whether the rules even apply is a pretty big 'gap' for someone who's been on this forum for fifteen years.

I can generally rely on reasonably sound rules behaviour from people who weren't even born fifteen years ago.
The OP's attitude in this matter is in my view fairly typical of a breed of 'club racer' who do a lot of damage to our sport.

Cruiser racing seems to be in decline. Why do you think that is?
I think one of the problems is the quality of people you get to race against.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think one of the problems is the quality of people you get to race against.

As in " We are superior, we know our rights, get out of our way"

 

[dom]

But why do people expect to take part in a sport without learning the basics of the rules?
Would you play rugby against people who'd chosen not to learn the rules?

Good point somewhat modified by the fact that better sailors usually have only transient contact with beginners. In my local squash club for example there is a mix of international players down to beginners. Those who don't swiftly grasp the safety rules, or worse willingly ignore them, soon find themselves without anyone to hit with. In the same way it's the other beginners and recreational club sailors who mostly bear the brunt of the inconsiderate few -- especially if they're sailing faster boats -- as they trudge around the course in company.